An article in this month’s Info Tech & Telecom News quotes me about proposed stimulus funding for an in-flight broadband provider.

My take: it’s corporate welfare.

Airlines are pushing hard to bring in-flight Wi-Fi to their customers, but there’s little evidence consumers are willing to spend much to be connected in the air. So perhaps airlines should be looking to advertisers to fund their services. In-flight Wi-Fi faces several challenges, from expensive deployments to a general lack of passenger knowledge. But the biggest hurdle may be the proliferation of ad-funded Wi-Fi services on the ground, which is surely helping create a consumer mindset that wireless Internet access should be free.

Aircell, an Illinois-based startup, now offers its ground-to-air Wi-Fi service on 623 aircraft through partners including American Airlines, Delta, United and Air Canada. The company said its business is nearing 100,000 users per week and is on track to surpass the 2 million-user mark in January.

That sounds impressive, but it’s a tiny fraction of the number of users who fly every month. More than 65 million passengers took to the skies in the U.S. in August alone, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Department of Transportation. Also, Aircell’s data refers to sessions, not unique users, and the company doesn’t disclose paid sessions vs. free promotional sessions, as Wi-Fi Net News reported last week. Portfolio.com recently illustrated how those free promotional offerings are easily available as airlines try to entice passengers to try in-flight Wi-Fi for the first time.

Meanwhile, rival startup Row 44 has installed its system on only five planes — four Southwest Airline jets and one from Alaska Airlines — and, like Aircell, isn’t sharing usage data. Southwest has committed to rolling out the service on its entire fleet of 540 jets early next year. But whether Row 44 can raise the $125 million or so that will be necessary to fill Southwest’s order is far from certain, as Portfolio.com notes.

Air travelers are an especially affluent lot, as a JiWire study showed last week, making them an attractive target for Wi-Fi marketing. Perhaps if airlines can’t convince passengers to shell out for access, they can find ad partners to fund their services.

Air Canada is testing an in-flight Wi-Fi service from Aircell on its flights between Toronto and Los Angeles and Montreal and L.A. From now until Jan. 29, passengers can plunk down $9.95 per flight to surf on a laptop and $7.95 to access the Internet on smaller devices such as a smartphone or WiFi-enabled media players like the iPod touch. AirCell also provides its GoGo in-air Wi-Fi service on Delta (S dal) and American Airlines (S amr) flights in the U.S.

And because Aircell currently only has regulatory approval and the antenna coverage that enables airlines to offer Wi-Fi in the U.S., Air Canada passengers can only get their Wi-Fi fix when flying over U.S. soil. Perhaps that accounts for the slight discount on Air Canada’s prices for Wi-Fi when compared to American’s charge of $12.95 for in-flight access.

Earlier today, Air Canada unveiled plans to implement in-flight internet service. The carrier said they’ve begun testing the technology on flights from Los Angeles to both Toronto and Montreal. Although they’re a bit behind U.S. carriers with in-flight internet, Air Canada will be the first Canadian airline to offer the service.

Air Canada said they will continue testing until January 29th, and will analyze results / customer feedback prior to launching the service on other routes. Since setting up the service can be costly, it is important for Air Canada to gauge the demand for the service. Currently, the carrier has yet to receive approval to develop the ground infrastructure to support the service.

The internet will be provided by Aircell, using their Gogo in-flight internet service. Gogo is just about everywhere, and a majority of the U.S. carriers providing in-flight internet use Gogo. An alternative, Row44, secured a solid contract with Southwest Airlines, and the airline plans to start equipping its fleet (540+ aircraft) Q1 2010. I wonder if Southwest’s codeshare partner, Canada’s WestJet, will integrate Row44 in-flight broadband.

Passengers can use the service on laptops for $9.95 per flight or Personal Electronic Device (PDAs, SmartPhones, etc) for $7.95 per flight.

Crédit photo: Boeing Photo, #K64023, boeingmedia.com

Air Canada offre maintenant l’Internet à bord de certains vols Toronto-Los Angeles et Montréal-Los Angeles. Enfin! J’ai hâte de pouvoir essayer ça!

Je m’apporte presque toujours du travail lorsque je prends l’avion et trop souvent, je finis par être bloquée parce que je dois vérifier des trucs sur Internet. J’ai hâte que ce soit disponible dans tous les vols! Comme ça, je pourrai travailler efficacement et envoyer mes textes ou mes emails pendant mes vols. Ça fait longtemps que j’attends ce moment!

Le coût pour un vol? 9,95$ US pour les ordinateurs portables ou 7,95$ US pour les dispositifs électroniques personnels. Je trouve ça vraiment raisonnable. Il me semble que l’Internet me coûte plus cher à l’aéroport Trudeau alors que je n’y ai accès qu’à peine plus d’une heure!

Après la période d’essai qui va se terminer en janvier 2010, la compagnie va décider, selon les commentaires des clients, si elle étend son service à d’autres liaisons. J’espère que oui! Si quelqu’un va à Los Angeles prochainement, j’aimerais bien que vous m’écriviez pour me dire comment est le service!

Voici une publicité de GoGo inflight d’Aircell, le fournisseur de la connexion Internet.

aircanada.com / twitter.com/aircanadacsp / Facebook.com/aircanada

gogoinflight.com / twitter.com/gogoinflight / facebook.com/gogoinflight

Account Name: Vodafone_gprs
Homepage: http://live.vodafone.in
User Name: (no need)
Pass: (no need)

Access Point Settings :-
Proxy: Enabled
Proxy Address: 10.10.1.100
Proxy Port: 9401
Data Bearer: Packet Data

Bearer Settings :-
Packet Data Access Point: portalnmms
Network type: IPV4
Authentication: normal
User Name: (no need)
Password: (no need)

*IF that happen this settings is not working then change the proxy port number to:-

Proxy Port: 9401

This is cool! I’m writing this blog at 33,000 feet. Right now, it’s a cool novelty, but I suspect that as more and more airlines roll out inflight WiFi, this will become very commonplace. I’m so excited about this, I can barely drink my $6 in-flight beer!

I’m writing this between Dallas and Denver on one of American Airlines’ very old Super 80’s. Our aircraft still has McDonnell-Douglas labels. It’s one of the 2-seat/3-seat aircraft that everyone loves to complain about. personally, I like them because they get me there and because of the seating configuration, there’s a 50% less chance I’ll get stuck in the dreaded middle seat. But because of their lack of in-flight entertainment systems, they are also among the first in AA’s fleet to get inflight WiFi and I think it rocks!

The provider is GoGo Inflight Internet. The cost per flight is $9.95 for a laptop and $7.95 for a WiFi-enabled PDA, such as an iPhone. I think this is a better deal than paid WiFi you often find while waiting for the plane at the airport. In the past, you might drop $8-$10 with T-Mobile or Boingo to get 30 minutes of internet at the gate before your plane boards. Depending on the length of your flight, you can get an hour or two (or more for long hauls) for about the same cash.

Email works. Chat works. You can watch YouTube video. You’ve got access to social networking sites, such as Facebook and Twitter. You can blog from eight miles high. I even have access to my FTP site, where I’ve uploaded and downloaded files. The throughput is good. On this flight, I had throughput of about 575 kbps, comparable to DSL lines from a few years back.

I like to use the time on a flight to get caught up on projects. Now, I’m able to email proofs or tweak code on web pages. I can research projects or surf the web for inspirato. I can probably push my luck and upload pressready PDFs if I have a client emergency while in flight.

I’ve been reading about inflight WiFi for a couple of years and have been looking forward to trying it. I was initially worried that the service would be unreliable or slow. Thankfully, GoGo by Aircell is inflight WiFi done right. Fire up your laptop or iPhone and enjoy the flight!

=M=
Creative Director
www.typeadesign.com

In-flight broadband’s story so far has been similar to that of airplanes sitting on the runway, waiting for clearance to take flight. Despite a big push from Boeing and other major international carriers, in-flight broadband was stuck on ground, burning dollars like an idle plane burns gas. No more! Thanks to new surface-to-air technologies used by companies such as Aircell, the business is ready for takeoff.

Of course, airlines’ desperation to make money any which way they can has helped accelerate the rollout of GoGo-like services. In-Stat, a market research firm, predicts there will be 800 planes with in-flight broadband by the end of 2009 vs. just 25 in 2008, generating $47 million in global revenue. By 2012, In-Stat expects in-flight broadband will be a billion-dollar-a-year business, with demand for in-flight broadband equipment nearly doubling between 2009 and 2013. Indeed, airlines such as Virgin, American Airlines (s amr), Alaska (s alk) and Delta (s dal) are being super aggressive with their rollouts.

By 2013, In-Stat sees the number of annual in-flight broadband connects topping 200 million. “Connections from handheld devices will account for about 1/3 of connects, with notebook computers accounting for 2/3,” the firms predicts. On that point, I think they’re wrong. It will be the other way around. Using the iPhone/iPod Touch to connect and get emails is a much better and easier option than opening up a notebook.

Useful link: The GigaOM In-Flight Broadband Cheat Sheet.

Not too long ago, US Airways decided to ditch their in-flight-entertainment (IFE) monitors for aircraft that serve domestic and Caribbean routes. The monitors added a good amount of weight to the gross weight of the aircraft and in the generation of iPods and the rapid growth of consumer electronics, it’s fair to say that a majority of passengers on-board were not watching IFE. It appears as though airlines are moving away from IFE and are installing lighter 150 pound equipment that provides wireless internet in the air.

Who?

In the past year, U.S. & Canadian airlines have shifted their focus to a new amenity offered on-board flights: Wi-Fi. A few airlines have already started to implement Wi-Fi; others have just been testing it. Virgin America has installed Aircell’s Gogo Inflight Internet on-board every aircraft in their relatively small fleet. Air Canada, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines have begun to implement Gogo capability on-board aircraft. Southwest Airlines and Alaska Airlines have been trying out California-based Row 44’s inflight internet system, but neither airlines have made it official. Last I heard, Row 44 has not received FCC approval (unlike Aircell’s Gogo).

What is this costing travelers?

Currently, Southwest and Alaska are offering the service for free since it is in testing. Aircraft registrations equipped with Wi-Fi were posted on Southwest’s blog not too long ago. They are: N901WN, N902WN, N906WN, and N907WN. Alaska Airlines has seen 2,100 passengers use their Row 44 system. 96 percent of Alaska’s Wi-Fi users reported a good experience. Currently, Alaska Airlines is reportedly evaluating pricing models for the service.

American Airlines currently charges $12.95 for transcontinental flights with shorter routes costing $9.95. Handheld device users are charged $7.95. From AA’s website:

Gogo Inflight Internet is now available to customers on select flights between New York (JFK) and Los Angeles (LAX), New York (JFK) and San Francisco (SFO), New York (JFK) and Miami (MIA), & Los Angeles (LAX) and Miami (MIA) on American’s Boeing 767-200 flights. The service is being installed on select MD80 aircraft. Gogo is available in the continental U.S. (lower 48 states) and to our Canadian destinations. Service will also be available to customers travelling to Mexico, however, coverage currently does not extend 100 miles beyond the U.S. border.

Delta charges a flat fee of $9.95 on flights of three hours or less and $12.95 for longer flights. Delta says it plans to have its entire fleet of planes covered by May 31, 2009, as well as those of its merger partner, Northwest Airlines. From Delta’s website:

Gogo will be offered initially on Delta’s fleet of 133 MD88/90 aircraft and will rapidly expand to the remaining domestic fleet of more than 200 Boeing 737, 757 and 767-300 aircraft throughout the first half of 2009. The airline expects to have more than 330 aircraft complete by summer 2009.

United Airlines announced their Wi-Fi service in January of this year. Sometime in the second half of this year, United is expected to implement Wi-Fi onboard their p.s. flights. “p.s.” offers transcontinental service from California to New York City. To properly quote United:

Aircell’s Gogo® Inflight Internet service will turn United’s p.s. aircraft into flying Wi-Fi hotspots, enabling customers to surf the Web, check e-mail, instant message and access corporate VPNs on their Wi-Fi-enabled devices. The service will be available to United customers traveling in all classes of service for a flat fee of $12.95.

The Best Amenity Around?

Airlines have a good opportunity of making money by providing Wi-Fi service. Travelers want it. It allows emails to be read, presentations to be compiled, and the teenager in 20B to change her Facebook status. Without a phone or any device to stay connected with the world, flying has taken a toll on passenger-productivity while on-board. Internet access on-board aircraft connects people to the world. I’d say connectivity is important to travelers.

I suspect more airlines will announce Wi-Fi service. Now that the IFE is gone from domestic / Carribbean service, why doesn’t US Airways implement Wi-Fi? They’re not the only ones not to, but I think airlines like US Airways will announce their interest.

Alaska Airlines (s alk) has started a trial of satellite broadband technology from California-based Row 44 that will allow customers to get — what else? — Internet when on the go. Row 44 had predicted commercial rollout of its service in 2009. This new service will be called Alaska Airlines Inflight Wi-Fi; the trial will begin on an afternoon flight between Seattle and San Jose, Calif., and will run for about 60 days. If successful, the airline will roll out the service to its entire fleet. Row 44 has tied up with Southwest Airlines (s luv) and is challenging Aircell and its gogo service. Aircell has teamed up with Virgin America, American Airlines (s amr), Delta and others. Row 44 used Ku band satellites, while Aircell is based on an air-to-ground system. JetBlue-owned (s jblu) LiveTV and ViaSat (s vsat) are two other players vying to carve out a piece of the inflight broadband market. (Related: Inflight Broadband Cheat Sheet & Boeing, Boeing… Gone.)

When I went to Great Britain back in the fall, I took Northwest Airlines. It was an eight-hour ride between London Heathrow and the airports where I made my connection: Detroit on the way there and Minneapolis/St. Paul on the way back.

Northwest Airlines Airbus A330-300

I would have enjoyed using the Internet while in the air. And I may eventually get to do that. Delta, which is merging with Northwest, is installing WiFi on its aircraft. The Atlanta-based airline is partnering with Aircell’s Gogo to keep travelers wired in the sky, with the help of cellular towers down below.

Gogo is also being used by American Airlines on flights to San Francisco, Los Angeles and Miami from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York, and also by Virgin America. United and Air Canada are said to be following suit soon. And Southwest is testing WiFi with a company called Row 44.

Delta, meanwhile, hopes to have its entire fleet connected by year’s end, and they’re looking to hook up the livery it has acquired from Northwest as well. Whether that applies to any Delta/Northwest flights in and out of The Eastern Iowa Airport in Cedar Rapids, your guess is as good as mine.

It should be pointed out that it will cost you to browse from 35,000 feet. You’ll have to pay $9.95 for unlimited access if you use it on a Delta flight that’s less than a three-hour tour and $12.95 for access on a flight more than three hours. Similarly, it’s $12.95 to use the Internet on an American flight. In addition, Delta will block certain content that might not be suitable for all ages. Hopefully Channel 25 doesn’t make it onto that list.

I may be headed to the East Coast later this summer–I’d like to visit both New York and Washington, and will probably fly into Philadelphia to achieve that. I like the idea of WiFi on airplanes, but I don’t know that I need to shell out $10 to get to the Web from above the ground. I mean, I can live a few hours without being online, can’t I?

BGS

Now that title doesn’t surprise very many readers, I’m certain. Nearly all of us are familiar with the PC Card cellular modems that plug into laptops, and are aware that the newer USB versions have hit an even steeper trajectory of sales growth. One of my Cisco friends often says “I live on 3G,” and he’s referring to the reality that with his home in North Carolina, his co-workers in San Jose, and his customers spread in between, nearly all of his Internet consumption travels via the Verizon Wireless EVDO card in the laptop he uses while on the road.

Many of you are also aware of the rapid advancement of Machine to Machine (M2M) communications and the dozens of MVNOs sprouting up to focus on it. That industry uses 2G and 3G devices integrated into equipment, such as oil rigs, billboards and windmill generators, to transfer the real-time and non-real-time data needed to keep performance high and costs low.

But 3G is showing up in lots more places too, and we’ve only just begun to see the spread. I am personally intrigued with the use of 3G to enhance devices that we were familiar with in a prior version . In a previous posting I mentioned the recent arrival of 3G integrated into Personal Navigation Devices. I want to take that theme farther now and start building a list of newly connected devices.

So, here’s the criteria for making it on to the list:

-          Human oriented devices, that is, unlike M2M the purpose of the device must primarily serve for human consumption.

-          One of the following:

o       Devices whose traditional functionality is enhanced via the 3G connectivity.

o       Devices whose traditional functionality is maintained while valuable new functionality is added via the 3G connectivity

o       New devices that weren’t feasible or practical without the 3G connection

-          And of course, primarily voice oriented devices, such as cellphones, are excluded

Here’s the complete list of 3G enabled devices that I am currently aware of:

-          Amazon Kindle – A true breakthrough product, and even more so because I believe that most Kindle owners are only vaguely aware that the thing is using Sprint’s cellular network.

-          Personal Navigation Devices – notable for the absence of Garmin or Motorola

o       Dash

o       Insignia

-          IVC Remote Video Security Camera – Good news for construction companies. Now you can remotely monitor any location that falls within 3G coverage.

-          Vizit Photo Frame (coming Spring ’09) – In my view a digital photo frame is most useful in the role of bring Grandma into the loop of digital photography, allowing her to appreciate the photos you take of the kids without requiring all the messing around with printing. But, how many Grandmas have WiFi????  Send her this frame in the mail. She plugs it in. You send photos to it. Simple.

-          uConnect Web service (aka Autonet Mobile) available in 2009 Chrysler vehicles. Now the kids can keep their iPod Touches operating while the family is on the road.

-          LG Watch (LG-GD910) – OK, just what you always needed, video streaming to your wrist!

Please point me to other products that you know about and I’ll add them and give you credit.

Here’s some devices I’d like enhanced with 3G:

-          YouTube Video Cameras

-          Digital Cameras

-          Handheld Multi-Function Displays for aviation, e.g. the Garmin 696, using Aircell’s EVDO network

I’d love to hear your ideas for products that are ready to be connected.

I was seriously thinking about giving up on United Airlines and my accumulated miles in favor of Virgin America for my transcontinental needs. After all, the idea of getting Internet access — however expensive it might be — when flying back and forth from New York made Virgin more appealing than free upgrades from United. Well, now I don’t have to do that. United will offer Aircell’s Gogo in-flight Internet access starting sometime in the second quarter of 2009. The service will be available to United customers traveling between New York’s JFK Airport and Los Angeles and San Francisco for a flat fee of $12.95. Gogo is now available on five North American airlines.

Cette initiative avait été concrétisée en 2004 par la compagnie Boeing et son programme baptisé Connexion By Boeing. L’idée, innovante, avait su séduire les usagers mais le projet avait néanmoins été abandonné en 2006 car économiquement peu rentable.

Aujourd’hui, les compagnies American Airlines et Virginia America proposent de nouveau le Wi-Fi dans leurs avions pour les vols intérieurs. Ce service est géré par un équipementier réseau Aircell qui compte bien se développer à l’étranger : Canada, Mexique …

Alors, bientôt le Wi-Fi dans les avions français ?

Plus d’infos : ici

So I took a little a break from working on gdgt to get on Virgin America’s inaugural Aircell GoGo WiFi party flight, posting this at altitude. If you haven’t already caught one of the early Aircell flights on Delta, American, or Air Canada, their now-active GoGo service provides in-flight internet. So far, as far as party planes go, this one hasn’t been too raucous — probably because everyone’s been geeking out on their laptops.
Quick facts:

• The service is a shared high-power EV-DO Rev. A connection, at 3.6Mbps downstream and 1.8Mbps upstream.
• By April, 100% of Virgin America’s flights will have GoGo service. Dayumn! All GoGo service is $10 for short flights (under 3 hours) and $13 for longer flights (over 3 hours).
• So far I’ve been getting about 1Mbps down, and 200Kbps up — pretty good considering that this is about as pinned as the system is going to get. There are only about 150 people on it right now, you know?
• Latency is between 200-500ms, sometimes higher. Reasonable latency, though.
• The system uses 802.11a/b/g, although it’s an open AP (i.e. no encryption).
• Speaking of which, GoGo claims they’ll support VPN, so expect that to work. SSH is iffy though — it worked for us, but they don’t really want people SSH tunneling (especially to do stuff like VoIP).
• Aircell intends to block voice and video chat to keep things less obnoxious for travelers. It’s working in flight though — people are doing iChat sessions. But part of this inaugural flight will have live YouTube streaming, so one should expect to have this cut off later.
• BitTorrent works! It’s not crazy fast, but I’m peering with about 8 nodes. I wouldn’t expect this to work when the service launches.
• GoGo has a built-in traffic shaper that keeps an eye out for those using more traffic than others. If you’re consuming too much, it’ll scale you back (although no one has a hard cap). If you’re the only one on GoGo (say, on a red-eye at 4am) then you can go crazy, you won’t be scaled back. Still, I’m sitting next to my old pal Brian Lam from Giz, and I’d wager the two of us are somehow taking up about 80% of the plane’s bandwidth.
• Virgin America isn’t filtering content, so feel free to cast a glance over your shoulder and engage your browser’s private mode.

Any thing else you want to know?

source: Engadget

This is awesome. Virgin America has launched Aircell’s Gogo Inflight internet service to customer. From $10 for each flight, you can surf the web. By April 2009, all Virgin America’s flight will have this service. Delta Air Lines and Air Canada are launching the service on all of their domestic and Canadian aircraft. American Airlines is currently testing the service on their 767-200s. The Aircell system uses EVDO Rev. A, which is extremely fast. There have been many issues dealing with pornography on the aircraft. American Airlines and Delta are filtering the results, but Virgin America has decided that filtering will not be implemented on their aircraft.

GREAT NEWS SOON!

Number portability on GSM in the Metros of India
More hear-say
International Mobile operators in India

Hi All,

Mobile Number Portability for India By Q4 2008
In a much awaited move, the Department of Telecommunications (DoT) announced the introduction of “number portability” in Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai giving about 18% of the total mobile subscriber base in the country, or over 37.5 million mobile customers the option to change their operators without changing their mobile number. This move, which should come into play by the fourth quarter of 2008, is expected to increase the overall churn in the industry, forcing the mobile operators, to enhance both their service as well as their offerings. Hopefully, it would also lead to lower prices for the consumers, and give new players a better playing field.
“The average churn in the industry is 3 to 4 per cent but with portability it could go up to 8 to 10 per cent. It is bound to impact incumbents who will lose some of their high-paying customers,” said an analyst.
However, so far it has only been introduced for mobile subscribers – wonder if and when it would come in for landlines as well.

-> Read: http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=304144

GREAT NEWS SOON!

More hear-say on the same:
1. CDMA is yet not compatible to adopt Number Portability
2. Tata and Reliance will come with a SIM that can double up as a CDMA+GSM SIM card
3. Six new operators including Aircell (Chennai), Tata, Reliance, Virgin, Shyam Telecom(yes, you heard it right) and Idea are coming to Bangalore
4. Aircell have inaugurated their office in BTM Layout already.

One more recent Article says:

Norway’s Telenor buys Unitech’s telecom firm
BS Reporters | Business Standard | New Delhi, October 30, 2008

Sees scope for growth despite crowded market.

Norway-based Telenor, the world’s seventh largest telecom operator with a subscriber base of about 159 million, has bought new-generation telecom company Unitech Wireless, which holds a licence for 22 circles, by paying Rs 6,120 crore for a 60 per cent stake.

The company is promoted by Delhi-based realty group Unitech, which was in the news last week after its share price was hammered down on rumours of payment defaults.

The telecom firm will invest Rs 15,000 crore in the next three years and roll out services in 22 circles, for which it has received a licence in phases. In the first phase, it will roll out services in 13 circles, for which it has received spectrum, or the radio frequencies that enable wireless communications, by the middle of next year.

Although Chandra said the company received a “fair price” for the value of the licence, the price at which the deal has been struck is lower than a similar deal struck by Etisalat last month. The UAE-promoted firm bought 45 per cent in another new licence holder, Swan Telecom, for Rs 4,050 crore for 13 circles that gives Swan an enterprise value of Rs 10,350 crore.

Also, in June this year the AV Birla group’s Idea Cellular bought BK Modi’s 40.8 per cent stake in Spice Communications for Rs 2,700 crore for just two circles with over 4.5 million subscribers.

Unitech, however, paid Rs 1,650 crore as licence fee for the pan-Indian licence, for which it gets a valuation of over Rs 11,000 crore.

Telenor has operations in Bangladesh (where it is the largest mobile operator), Pakistan, Malaysia and Thailand. With over 65 million subscribers in Asia, it is the fourth-largest global player in this market after SingTel, NTT DoComo and Vodafone.

-> Now, this means there is going to be more players in the Communications arena.

- > Anyone has any more updates, kindly mail and contribute to our knowledge.