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	<title>joel-osteen &amp;laquo; WordPress.com Tag Feed</title>
	<link>http://en.wordpress.com/tag/joel-osteen/</link>
	<description>Feed of posts on WordPress.com tagged "joel-osteen"</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:57:08 +0000</pubDate>

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<title><![CDATA[The True Prosperity Gospel: Great Wealth is Contentment in Christ by Brian Montgomery]]></title>
<link>http://crossthought.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/the-true-prosperity-gospel-great-wealth-is-contentment-in-christ-by-brian-montgomery/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Brian Montgomery</dc:creator>
<guid>http://crossthought.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/the-true-prosperity-gospel-great-wealth-is-contentment-in-christ-by-brian-montgomery/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[For some time now I have been burdened to write an article dealing with one of the fastest growing m]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><img class="alignright" title="Key to Wealth" src="http://brianmont51.wordpress.com/files/2009/08/wealthy_sm2.jpg?w=300" alt="Key to Wealth" width="255" height="170" />For some time now I have been burdened to write an article dealing with one of the fastest growing movements in the world today- the prosperity gospel. Christianity Today writes,<br />
<em><br />
“…prosperity-tinged Pentecostalism is growing faster not just than other strands of Christianity, but than all religious groups, including Islam. Of Africa&#8217;s 890 million people, 147 million are now &#8220;renewalists&#8221; (a term that includes both Pentecostals and charismatics), according to a 2006 Pew Forum on Religion and Public life study. They make up more than a fourth of Nigeria&#8217;s population, more than a third of South Africa&#8217;s, and a whopping 56 percent of Kenya&#8217;s.” </em></p>
<p>Let me first state a disclaimer that the issue I am addressing in this note is not Pentecostalism, charismatics, or any other group under the same persuasion concerning spiritual gifts. I have came to the conclusion that even though I may disagree with those who lean towards a Pentecostal and continuationist view point of the gifts, they are in fact still my brothers and sisters in Christ if they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. In addition to this, I’d like to make two more claims. The first is- I acknowledge that not all charismatics are preachers of prosperity. For example, three Godly men (that I admire greatly) lean towards a charismatic understanding of the gifts-<br />
<strong>Mark Driscoll</strong> (Preaching pastor of Mars Hill Church Seattle)<br />
<strong>Joshua Harris </strong>(Senior pastor of Covenant Life Church and author of bestselling book I Kissed Dating Goodbye)<br />
<strong>C.J. Mahaney</strong> (President of Sovereign Grace Ministries)</p>
<p>I greatly admire all three of these men because they preach Christ crucified for the glory of God, rather than for materialistic prosperity. While I understand that not every charismatic believer preaches prosperity, in my second claim I acknowledge that there are some non-charismatics who preach prosperity. One huge example of this is Joel Osteen. Osteen is not necessarily a continuationist charismatic (one who believes the gifts of the spirit are still active), but his message of prosperity has resulted in him leading one of the largest churches in America. It’s this specific message of prosperity that I target in this note, and not any particular group of people other than those who teach it.</p>
<p>A reasonable starting point for this would be a definition for the Prosperity gospel. <strong>Kent Garber of U.S. News</strong> writes this about the Prosperity gospel, <em>“The message of the Prosperity Gospel is simple: God wants Christians to prosper in all aspects of life, and that includes their finances.” </em> The foundations of this belief system date back to the early 1900s where<strong> E. W. Kenyon</strong>, a Free Will Baptist minister from New England, began to reveal this new theology in his writings. However, some scholars have came to the conclusion that Kenyon’s thought process did not originate with him. <strong>Dr. Dale H. Simmons, a student of Oral Roberts University,</strong> argued from his research that Kenyon found influence from <em>The Higher Life Movement</em>, and the cult called <em>The New Thought Movement</em>. Kenyon’s  main influence concerning the Prosperity gospel came from <em>The New Thought Movement</em>. This secular and religious mixed cult emphasized a set of metaphysical beliefs concerning the effects of positive thinking, the law of attraction, healing, life force, creative visualization and personal power. Kenyon’s teachings went onto influence the man who would later be considered the father of the modern Prosperity gospel,<strong> Kenneth Hagin</strong>. Hagin’s teachings reached a large variety of audiences as his messages of divine materialistic favoritism began to be aired on national television. Among the many to be influenced would be the pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, <strong>Joel Osteen</strong>.</p>
<p>While all of this information is very insightful and useful for understanding the origin of the Prosperity gospel, tracing the Prosperity gospel back to it’s forefathers is not enough to disprove it. The fact of the matter is that many of these forefathers used biblical scripture to support there claims. Therefore, if the Bible portrays this message to be accurate, then it’s ultimate origin was scripture rather than man. However, if scripture does not support the Prosperity gospel, then the origin is man and not scripture. Kent Garber writes this about the scriptural references for the Prosperity gospel,<em> “Adherents point to such biblical passages as <strong>2 Corinthians 8:9</strong>, in which Paul says, ‘[Y]et for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might become rich.’ They also cite <strong>Deuteronomy 8:18</strong>, which says, ‘But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth.’”</em> Other passages include:</p>
<p><strong>Psalm 35:27</strong><br />
<em>Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; And let them say continually, &#8220;The LORD be magnified, Who delights in the prosperity of His servant.&#8221; </em></p>
<p><strong>Proverbs 10:22</strong><em><br />
The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it.</em></p>
<p><strong>3 John 2</strong><em><br />
Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.</em></p>
<p>The first passage that I’ll address is <strong>2 Corinthians 8:9</strong>. This passage reads,<em> “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.”</em> The first thing to acknowledge is that whatever this <strong>&#8220;act of giving up riches that others would be rich&#8221;</strong> is, it is one in the same with the grace of Jesus Christ. The prosperity interpretation of this verse would be that Jesus gave up His riches and became poor, so that His believers could become materialistically wealthy. If this is in fact the correct interpretation, we see from the beginning of this passage (<em>“…you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ…”</em>) that the whole point of the cross was to make His followers materialistically wealthy. This then produces an alternative gospel which is completely different from evangelical Christianity. Evangelical Christianity and church tradition has taught that the grace of Jesus Christ was seen in Him paying the debt of sinners and taking their place on the cross. Therefore, the richness of Jesus spoken in this passage is a reference to His divine majesty which he gave up to take on the poor state of a common man; in which His substitutionary punishment bought the heavenly riches for sinful man; those riches being, one day joining Him to behold His eternal glory in Heaven. When in contrast, these two interpretations present very different understandings of grace and more so, the Gospel. In church tradition, such differences concerning the Gospel would be called heresy. Why would it be called heresy? Because this prosperity gospel, which it in fact does claim to be the gospel, contradicts the foundations of the Christian faith. Some may argue that the whole theme of <strong>2 Corinthians 8</strong> is material wealth and God’s desire for the believer’s prosperity.  However, this is not accurate. <strong>2 Corinthians 8</strong> deals with giving, but not receiving. However, it does mention gaining wealth in <strong>verse 2</strong>- <em>“…their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.”</em> Does this mean they gained material wealth/blessing for their generosity? I don’t think so. The Greek word for “liberality” is <em>haplotēs</em>. This Greek word means singleness, and would otherwise be understood in this context to mean single-mindedness. Therefore, the wealth that the people partake in would be a wealth of satisfaction and joy which comes from giving for the sole purpose of furthering the Gospel; and not for a material reward.</p>
<p>The second passage here is<strong> Deuteronomy 8:18</strong>,<em> “But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.” </em>The first question to ask here would be, “Is this referring to material gain for faithfulness?” I am inclined to say no. This passage is simply stating that the power to make wealth comes from God, and that it is in fact Him working through you to make the wealth. The reason that this passage is not referring to material gain as reward for faithfulness is because the people that received this wealth were unfaithful. This passage is specifically dealing with Israel, which inherited the Promise Land and was delivered from the land of Egypt. All along the way these people were rebellious and unfaithful to God. They are furthermore disciplined and sentenced to wandering 40 years in the wilderness for this unfaithfulness. However, in spite of this rebellion, God continually provides and delivers them from these obstacles. This is the story of mankind and their redemption. It is an illustration of God delivering man from the bondage of sin (illustrated as the bondage of Egypt) to the reward of Heaven- the ultimate manifestation of the glory of Jesus that will be revealed to man (illustrated as the Promise Land).</p>
<p>The third passage is<strong> Psalm 35:27</strong>- <em>“Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; And let them say continually, ‘The LORD be magnified, Who delights in the prosperity of His servant.’” </em>This psalm is a lament of David. In this psalm, David cries out to God because he is wrongly being attacked by a foreign power with whom he had previously entered into a covenant. He pleas with God that He would examine the evidence and show justice to His servant. The<em> “…prosperity of His servant”</em> is an actual victory and deliverance from harmful and unjust forces opposing the servant, not material prosperity.</p>
<p>The next passage used to defend the Prosperity gospel is <strong>Proverbs 10:22</strong>,<em> “The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it.” </em>The blessing that Solomon is referring to is his wisdom which was given to him by God. The wealth that the LORD brings is the fruit of this wisdom. It is a wealth that comes by honest means and hard work, which is why there is no trouble to it. This is a reference to <strong>Proverbs 13:11</strong>, <em>“Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow.” </em>This is also a reference of <strong>Proverbs 15:6</strong>, <em>“The house of the righteous contains great treasure, but the income of the wicked brings them trouble.” </em>Therefore, this passage is not saying that the blessing of God itself is gain of wealth, but rather wisdom. And through wisdom, a person is able to make an honest living which will not perish, as that gained by dishonesty.</p>
<p>The final passage that I will be dealing with pertaining to the Prosperity gospel is <strong>3 John 2</strong>, <em>“Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.”</em> This phrase spoken here would be the equivalent of saying “God bless you” in our culture. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for people in this culture to ask the condition of each other’s health. John is simply doing so in a creative and unique manner to highlight Gaius’ spiritual health.</p>
<p>The main problem of the prosperity gospel is that at the core of its teachings, it drives people to satisfaction in material things rather than Jesus. It is not the gospel, or even a hint of good news to those who hear it. The good news is that Jesus Christ died that sinners would be redeemed for the purpose of eternally rejoicing in their heavenly treasure, Jesus. This is why <strong>Matthew 16:19-21</strong> says,<br />
<em><br />
(19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. (20) But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (21) For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. </em></p>
<p>This is also why Jesus said, <em>&#8220;The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field&#8221; </em><strong>(Matthew 13:44)</strong>. Jesus calls us to forsake the treasures of this world and to embrace the Treasure of Heaven. The streets of Heaven are made of gold for a reason- because it has no eternal worth. Rather, the jewel of Heaven is Jesus Christ. This is also why Paul proclaims,<em> “(7) But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. (8) What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ (9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith”</em><strong> (Philippians 3:7-9)</strong>. Paul had riches and good health, but he gave those up that he would gain Christ. He saw that true wealth is contentment in Jesus <strong>(Philippians 4:10-13)</strong>.</p>
<p>The most disturbing image in my head concerning the Prosperity gospel comes from a story I heard at a conference. The speaker for the conference, who is a pastor and regularly active missionary, visited a small village overseas where a woman had been able to pick up American television through her antenna. Among the American programs that she picked up was American televangelism. She soon heard the Prosperity gospel and it’s message of false hope; that if one has enough faith, God will bless them with materialistic riches. She approached this missionary with confusion, asking him why she still lived in a hut with a dirt floor. She continued on to ask him if the reason she had not gained riches was because she wasn’t faithful enough. This is a woman who daily risked her life for Christ to be known among her people, and she is asking if she isn’t faithful enough because she isn’t rich. The presentation of the Prosperity gospel does not point to Jesus, nor satisfaction in Him. If it isn&#8217;t glorifying to God, it&#8217;s not of God.</p>
<p><strong>1 Timothy 6:3-10</strong><em><br />
(3) If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, (4) he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions (5) and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. (6) But godliness with contentment is great gain. (7) For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. (8) But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. (9) People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. (10) For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.</em></p>
<p>This passage in Timothy is specifically dealing with those who preach prosperity. It speaks of these prosperity spokesmen as people <em>&#8220;who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.&#8221;</em> Jesus is not a means to an end. He is the end goal. He is not a blank check for infinite material gain and worldly pleasure. He is the Son of God, and all-sufficient for those who truly belong to Him. In Him we find ultimate satisfaction, and in our satisfaction He is most glorified. The Prosperity gospel points people away from these truths. That is why it is a heresy, and a great threat to Biblical Christianity. That is why those who know the Truth must speak boldly in love for Christ and His finished work, rather than showing compassion for a heretical doctrine that attacks the very work of Christ. True believers will love and embrace these truths. It’s all about Him, and not about us- or our financial gain. In the end we must ask,<em> &#8220;What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?&#8221;</em><strong> (Matthew 16:26).</strong></p>
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<title><![CDATA[reformed rap friday: u kidding me by katalyst]]></title>
<link>http://calvinoconnor.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/reformed-rap-friday-u-kidding-me-by-katalyst/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>calvinoconnor</dc:creator>
<guid>http://calvinoconnor.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/reformed-rap-friday-u-kidding-me-by-katalyst/</guid>
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<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/es042IyuN5M&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/es042IyuN5M&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
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<title><![CDATA[TD Jakes and Joel Osteen: Living the American Dream, Through God]]></title>
<link>http://reachmagazinetv.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/td-jakes-and-joel-osteen/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>reachmagazinetv</dc:creator>
<guid>http://reachmagazinetv.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/td-jakes-and-joel-osteen/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[We all know TD Jakes and Joel Osteen as two of the most popular ministers ever to preach the good wo]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[We all know TD Jakes and Joel Osteen as two of the most popular ministers ever to preach the good wo]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[Top 15 Books on Status of American Evangelicalism]]></title>
<link>http://modernpensees.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/top-15-books-on-status-of-american-evangelicalism/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Michael Graham</dc:creator>
<guid>http://modernpensees.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/top-15-books-on-status-of-american-evangelicalism/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[No Place for Truth by David Wells These books represent the best analysis on the present status and ]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div id="attachment_381" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 277px"><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Place-Whatever-Happened-Evangelical-Theology/dp/080280747X/ref=modepens-20"><img class="size-full wp-image-381" title="No Place for Truth" src="http://modernpensees.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/no-place-for-truth.jpg" alt="" width="267" height="400" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">No Place for Truth by David Wells</p></div>
<p>These books represent the best analysis on the present status and recent history of evangelicalism.  This list is meant to be informative and not to be alarmist or disconcerting.  I think the classic Dicken&#8217;s line, &#8216;<em>it was the best of times, it was the worst of times</em>&#8216; will apply the Christ&#8217;s church til He return.  It is implicit also in this list that works commending a Christian worldview, like Nancy Pearcey&#8217;s <em>Total Truth</em>, are must reads.  I have also omitted more esoteric debates including books on open theism, federal vision, new perspectives on paul&#8230; etc.  The purpose of this list is zoomed out than those specific issues.</p>
<p>1.  <a title="No Place for Truth" href="http://www.amazon.com/Place-Whatever-Happened-Evangelical-Theology/dp/080280747X/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">No Place for Truth</a> by David Wells  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>How modernity crept in and screwed up evangelicalism.  Absolute classic.</p>
<p>2.  <a title="The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" href="http://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evangelical-Mind-Mark-Noll/dp/0802841805/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind</a> by Mark Noll  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>The scandal of the evangelical mind is that it is so scarce and scant.  You may also want to read Os Guinness&#8217; <a title="Fit Bodies, Fat Minds" href="http://www.amazon.com/Fit-Bodies-Fat-Minds-Evangelicals/dp/0801038707/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Fit Bodies Fat Mind</a>s, addressing evangelicalism&#8217;s intellectual laziness and preoccupation with the temporary.</p>
<p>3.  <a title="The Democritization of American Christianity" href="http://www.amazon.com/Democratization-American-Christianity-Nathan-Hatch/dp/0300050607/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">The Democritization of American Christianity</a> by Nathan Hatch  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>Fascinating analysis of the democritization of Christianity in America.  His historical analysis is keen and well-researched.</p>
<p>4.  <a title="Christianity and Liberalism" href="http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Liberalism-J-Gresham-Machen/dp/0802811213/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Christianity and Liberalism</a> by J. Greshem Machen  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>This classic work delineates the liberalism of the early 20th century as being a completely other faith than the historic orthodox Christian faith.  86 years later it is still relevant.</p>
<p>5.  <a title="God in the Wasteland" href="http://www.amazon.com/God-Wasteland-Reality-Fading-Dreams/dp/0802841791/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">God in the Wasteland</a> by David Wells  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>Wells continues where he left off in <em>No Place for Truth</em>, by challenging evidenced consumerism in evangelicalism.</p>
<p>6.  <a title="The Courage to Be Protestant" href="http://www.amazon.com/Courage-Protestant-Truth-lovers-Marketers-Postmodern/dp/0802840078/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">The Courage to Be Protestant</a> by David Wells  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>The title is a play on Paul Tillich&#8217;s <em>The Courage to Be</em>.  Tillich&#8217;s work was a classic in early 20th century Protestant liberalism.  Wells draws connections between the emergent movement as really being a form of rehashed 20th century era liberalism.  Wells is also scathing on the level and abuse of marketing in modern evangelicalism.  As far as Wells goes, his <a title="Above All Earthly Pow'rs" href="http://www.amazon.com/Above-All-Earthly-Powrs-Postmodern/dp/0802824552/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Above All Earthly Pow&#8217;rs</a> s also a worthwhile read:  in terms of analysis <em>Pow&#8217;rs </em>is to post-modernity what <em>No Place for Truth </em>was to modernity.</p>
<p>7.  <a title="The New Shape of World Christianity" href="http://www.amazon.com/New-Shape-World-Christianity-Experience/dp/0830828478/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">The New Shape of World Christianity:  How American Experience Reflects Global Faith</a> by Mark Noll  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>I am surprised by the lack of press for this book.  Noll examines the history of Christianity in America and draws parallels in key growth areas (Southern hemisphere and the East).  Noll is actually rather positive amid the torrent of bad press on what American Christians are exporting.  This is an important work because we are good to be reminded that American evangelicalism is not the height of church history.  Further, the church is Christ&#8217;s and she will prevail.  I think Noll has his fingers on the pulse of what is going on and what is next, we would be wise to listen to what he has to say.</p>
<p>8.  <a title="Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism" href="http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Fundamentalism-Evangelicalism-George-Marsden/dp/0802805396/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism</a> by George Marsden  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>This is a must read if you seek to understand our history.  Also an important work is <a title="Revival and Revivalism" href="http://www.amazon.com/Revival-Revivalism-Iain-H-Murray/dp/0851516602/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Revival and Revivalism</a> by Iain Murray.</p>
<p>9.  <a title="Reclaiming the Center" href="http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Center-Confronting-Evangelical-Accommodation/dp/1581345682/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Reclaiming the Center:  Confronting Evangelical Accomodation to Postmodern Times</a> by Various Authors  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>Various heavyweights chime in on the necessity of remaining faithful to the preaching of the Word and to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  If you like this work, I suggest also Os Guinness&#8217;, <a title="Prophetic Untimeliness" href="http://www.amazon.com/Prophetic-Untimeliness-Challenge-Idol-Relevance/dp/0801065607/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Prophetic Untimeliness:  Challenging the Idol of Relevance</a>.</p>
<p>10.  <a title="Christless Christianity" href="http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801013186/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Christless Christianity</a> by Michael Horton  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>This books has caused a bit of a stir.  You can read John Frame&#8217;s book review <a title="Frame Review of Christless Christianity" href="http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2009Horton.htm" target="_self">here</a>.  I have yet to read the book, but I thought it a worthwhile mention to engage in present dialogue over the status of the Gospel in evangelicalism.  From what I gather, Horton has guys like Joel Osteen in view when he speaks of a Christianity without Christ.</p>
<p>11.  <a title="Young, Restless, and Reformed" href="http://www.amazon.com/Young-Restless-Reformed-Journalists-Calvinists/dp/1581349408/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Young, Restless, and Reformed</a> by Colin Hansen  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>This book is an important first look at the growing demographic of young Reformed folk.  This is an area that needs further analysis and hopefully a good work will come soon.</p>
<p>12.  <a title="Respectable Sins" href="http://www.amazon.com/Respectable-Sins-Confronting-We-Tolerate/dp/1600061400/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Respectable Sins:  Confronting the Sins We Tolerate</a> by Jerry Bridges  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>Bridges is 100% right when he highlights several sins that evangelicals strangely tolerate:  gossip, anger, pride, jealousy, anxiety, and selfishness to name a few.</p>
<p>13.  <a title="Why Johnny Can't Preach" href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Johnny-Cant-Preach-Messengers/dp/1596381167/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Why Johnny Can&#8217;t Preach:  The Media Have Shaped the Messengers</a> by T. David Gordon  [e, p, s]</p>
<p>Gordon applies <a title="The Medium is the Message" href="http://www.amazon.com/Medium-Massage-Marshall-McLuhan/dp/1584230703/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Marshall McLuhan&#8217;s</a> keen insights to shed light on the dearth of serious bible teaching in evangelicalism.</p>
<p>14.  <a title="Confessions of a Reformission Rev" href="http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Reformission-Rev-Leadership-Innovation/dp/0310270162/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Confessions of a Reformission Rev</a> by Mark Driscoll  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>I think Mark Driscoll is a very important voice in evangelicalism, moreso than many of my fellow Reformed brethren.  This book is a humorous yet insightful look into the story of the planting of Mars Hill Church in Seattle.  There are many lessons weaved into the narrative that are wise and memorable.</p>
<p>15.  <a title="Why We're Not Emergent" href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Were-Not-Emergent-Should/dp/0802458343/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Why We&#8217;re Not Emergent:  From Two Guys That Should Be</a> and <a title="Why We Love the Church" href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Love-Church-Institutions-Organized/dp/0802458378/ref=modepens-20" target="_self">Why We Love the Church:  In Praise of Institutions and Organized Religion</a> by Kevin DeYoung and Ted Kluck  [y, l, e, p, s]</p>
<p>The first book is a solid book on the emergent church.  I also wanted to end this list with on a positive note with <em>Why We Love the Church</em>.  Many times we can get so bogged down in self-criticism that we forget to praise God for all the truly good things he is doing in and through the church in America.</p>
<p>What we need is always adherence to the same three things:  orthodoxy, orthopathos, and orthopraxis.</p>
<p>(c=children; y=young adult; l=lay leader; e=elder; p=pastor; s=scholar)</p>
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<title><![CDATA[It's Your Time?!]]></title>
<link>http://katierae.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/its-your-time/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 04:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>katierae</dc:creator>
<guid>http://katierae.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/its-your-time/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[I happened to walk past this book in a book store a few days ago. Everything about this book makes m]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>I happened to walk past this book in a book store a few days ago.</p>
<p><a title="Details" href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/imageviewer.asp?ean=9781439100110"><img class="alignleft" style="border:0 none;" src="http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/44550000/44559336.JPG" border="0" alt="Details" width="197" height="292" /></a>Everything about this book makes me cringe. From the title to the cover, to the fact that it was number 7 on the highly questionable top sellers list at the book store.</p>
<p>I know that Joel Osteen has a lot of people in his church and a lot of fans world wide but everytime I see or hear his name it reminds me of the hatred I feel for the prosperity gospel. It makes me understand exactly why Paul wrote in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%201&#38;version=NIV">Galatias 1</a> that anyone who preaches a false gospel &#8216;let him be eternally condemned&#8217;.</p>
<p>The gospel &#8211; the true gospel &#8211; is not about me. Its about Jesus. But Joel doesn&#8217;t seem to get that. It&#8217;s your time. YOUR time?</p>
<p>After the title that all about me, the next thing I noticed was the tag line underneath.</p>
<p><img src="///Users/kate/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.jpg" alt="" /></p>
<p><a href="http://katierae.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/44559336.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-687" title="44559336" src="http://katierae.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/44559336.jpg" alt="" width="380" height="79" /></a></p>
<p>Activate your faith, Achieve your dreams, and Increase in God&#8217;s Favour. Since when does achieving your dreams lead to increasing in God&#8217;s favour?</p>
<p>I have been reading the first chapter of the book online. Here&#8217;s just a couple of things I take issue with.</p>
<blockquote><p>God wants to breathe new life into your dreams. He wants to breathe new hope into your heart. You may be about to give up on a marriage, on a troubled child, on a lifelong goal. But God wants you to hold on. He says that if you&#8217;ll get your second wind, if you&#8217;ll put on a new attitude and press forward like you&#8217;re headed down the final stretch, you&#8217;ll see Him begin to do amazing things.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, I&#8217;m not quite sure where God says that. 1 Peter 1:3 says &#8216;In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead&#8217;. This living hope is not about a solution for a bad marriage, the secret to raising trouble free children or a promise of achieving a life long goal. It is a the hope of assured eternal life, and an inhertiance that will never spoil or fade, that is kept in heaven (vs 4). The hope is that we will share in the ressurection of Christ. This hope reflects an eternal perspective.</p>
<blockquote><p>Tune out the negative messages. Quit telling yourself: I&#8217;m never landing back on my feet financially. I&#8217;m never breaking this addiction. I&#8217;m never landing a better job.</p>
<p>Instead, your declarations should be: I am closer than I think. I can raise this child. I can overcome this sickness. I can make this business work. I know I can find a new job.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh where to start. You can turn on the positive thinking all you like, but don&#8217;t be niave. Following Jesus will bring you joy, but it will also bring you suffering. &#8220;Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed&#8221; (1 Peter 4:12-13). Expect it. But there IS comfort for us. &#8220;I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength&#8221; (Philippians 4:11-13). Its not that our suffering will always be taken away, but that God will give us strength to endure it.</p>
<blockquote><p>You must get up each day knowing this could be the day you get the break you need. This could be the day you see your health turn around. This could be the day your child comes back home. This could be the day you meet the man or woman of your dreams.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s true. This might be the day. But it might not. And if today your health doesn&#8217;t turn or your child doesn&#8217;t come home or you don&#8217;t meet the man or woman of your dreams, then Joel has no hope for you. But Jesus does.</p>
<p>&#8220;Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls&#8221; (1 Peter 1:8-9).</p>
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<title><![CDATA[Still searching for an identity... part 4]]></title>
<link>http://thisjourneyismyown.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/still-searching-for-an-identity-part-4/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Kass</dc:creator>
<guid>http://thisjourneyismyown.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/still-searching-for-an-identity-part-4/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Faith, religion, God. I&#8217;m currently reading Joel Osteen&#8217;s latest book, &#8220;It&#8217;s]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><h2><strong>Faith, religion, God.</strong></h2>
<p><a href="http://thisjourneyismyown.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/joelosteenitsyourtime.jpg"><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-249" title="Joel Osteen's &#34;It's Your Time&#34;" src="http://thisjourneyismyown.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/joelosteenitsyourtime.jpg" alt="" width="240" height="240" /></a>I&#8217;m currently reading <a href="http://www.joelosteen.com/Pages/Index.aspx" target="_blank">Joel Osteen</a>&#8217;s latest book, &#8220;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Time-Activate-Increase/dp/143910011X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books&#38;qid=1259549697&#38;sr=8-1" target="_blank">It&#8217;s Your Time</a>&#8221; and annoying the Twitter world with my <a href="http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23ItsYourTime" target="_blank">#ItsYourTime</a>-related tweets. I subscribe to a brand of Christianity that does not subscribe to Osteen&#8217;s brand of Christianity. So why am I reading this book if I don&#8217;t agree with him? Several reasons actually:</p>
<ol>
<li><em><strong>Curiosity.</strong></em> It&#8217;s fun to make fun of what we know of the guy but has the message changed?</li>
<li><em><strong>Legitimate criticism.</strong> </em>I tire of Christians panning books they&#8217;ve never read and never intend to read. I want to legitimately pan&#8211;or extol (unlikely, though)&#8211;Osteen&#8217;s book.</li>
<li><em><strong>Amusement. </strong></em>His optimism amuses me. He&#8217;s easy to make fun of and his anecdotes are sometimes hilarious.</li>
<li><em><strong>Thought-provoking.</strong></em> In a twisted mode of thought, I enjoy finding verses and passages that are distorted or examples that are taken out of context. Makes me feel like a mini-theologian. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </li>
</ol>
<p>The trouble with Osteen&#8217;s book, however, is that there&#8217;s a lot of truth in it but there&#8217;s enough wrong to make it bad.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been assuming the majority of my readers are Christians who know about Joel Osteen in some way. Maybe you&#8217;re not a Christian or you&#8217;re simply not familiar with Mr. Osteen. Well, let me introduce you.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Osteen" target="_blank">Osteen</a>, in a nutshell, is considered by his supporters as &#8220;America&#8217;s voice of hope and encouragement&#8221; while his critics deem him as a proponent of the prosperity &#8220;health and wealth&#8221; gospel. Indeed, I can see truth from both sides.</p>
<p>Osteen writes in a very personable way, which makes it feel as though he&#8217;s speaking specifically to each reader. If a person is feeling discouraged, no doubt, Osteen has the gift of encouragement. (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IuiUOapK1w" target="_blank">Even renowned evangelical Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll has said such</a>!) Osteen is the ultimate optimist. (Sometimes, he&#8217;s so optimistic, it&#8217;s sickening.) I&#8217;m very much a cynic and a pessimist. I really have no business reading this book.</p>
<p>But there are scriptural truths that he <em><strong>does</strong></em> point out that I, as a pessimist, tend (and prefer) to overlook. For example, God tells us to ask Him for anything. (Matt. 7:7-11) And Osteen can even legitimately use Matthew 21:22 (&#8220;And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive&#8221;) if he so desires. I&#8217;d argue in favor of Osteen if someone tried to tell me Matthew 21:22 wasn&#8217;t a straightforward verse. (Even taken in its context.)</p>
<p>However, where Osteen errs is by leading readers to believe that God will &#8220;fulfill all the desires of your heart.&#8221; (Psalm 37:4) If we look at the entire verse, which says, &#8220;Delight yourself also in the LORD, and He shall give you the desires of your heart,&#8221; it implies first &#8220;delighting in God.&#8221; When believers delight themselves in God (and the things <em>He&#8217;s</em> after), the desires of their heart will align with the desires of God&#8217;s heart, not the desires of our sinful lusts. James 4:2-3 again confirms this by saying:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>You lust and do not have. &#8230; You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Christians sometimes have this fallacious belief that God does not answer prayer. Not so! God does answer prayer with a yes or no. Sometimes he doesn&#8217;t always answer right away but he does eventually answer our requests. Often, some people take a &#8220;no&#8221; response to really mean &#8220;no answer&#8221; because we keep hoping He&#8217;ll say &#8220;yes.&#8221; I can pray my little heart out to be as rich as Bill Gates one day. It&#8217;s legitimate to ask for it since I can ask for anything. However, I must also realize it&#8217;s legitimate for God to flat-out&#8211;or take His time in saying no.</p>
<p>Has Osteen&#8217;s book helped me to dream a bit bigger? Well, yes&#8211;cautiously.</p>
<p>Osteen has a pretty big God and I think Osteen&#8217;s critics sometimes view through the lens of cynicism and try to make God so much smaller than He really is. Truth is, no one can contain God&#8211;not you, not me, not Osteen, and definitely not Osteen&#8217;s book or sermons. Can God bestow much wealth and restore full health upon you? He sure can; I believe that. Will He? I don&#8217;t know but the likelihood of obtaining exceptional wealth is slim. (When I mean &#8220;wealth&#8221; here, I&#8217;m referring to the Americanized definition of &#8220;massive accumulation of wealth,&#8221; which is the language Osteen uses.)</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s where I have a problem with Osteen. Can God do anything? Yes. Will He do anything and everything simply because I ask Him to? No. God is not a magic genie we must rub the right way. This becomes a works-based, legalistic theology. People must obey God simply because He is God. He created all things and therefore gets to make the rules whether we like it or not.</p>
<p>But Osteen tells his readers if they believe they&#8217;ll receive <strong>whatever</strong> they ask for and have enough faith, it will happen. He can support this with Matthew 21:22, remember? How do you refute that?</p>
<p>Osteen&#8217;s book so far has challenged me to have more faith in what I pray for. Not some lackadaisical half-hearted faith (&#8220;Well, I&#8217;ll pray for it, but it likely won&#8217;t happen.&#8221;) but a real, bold faith that could position me for embarrassment if it doesn&#8217;t happen (&#8220;I prayed for it and have NO DOUBT it&#8217;ll come to pass!&#8221;). I&#8217;m challenged to pray with confidence, not expecting disappointment but with a realistic mindset that my prayers may not be answered exactly the way I&#8217;d like them to be. (I prayed fervently for an Italian husband and got NOWHERE CLOSE to that. But I wouldn&#8217;t trade my husband of Anglo-Sax/German heritage for any other man.) God&#8217;s ways and wisdom are so much higher than mine. He&#8217;s a better judge of good things that I could ever be.</p>
<h2><strong>Relationship with God.</strong></h2>
<p>Lately, I&#8217;ve felt like a Christian in name only (CINO). I hear all these stories of how Christians are told by non-Christians that they &#8220;are different&#8221; and that &#8220;there&#8217;s something special&#8221; about them they&#8217;d like to also have. <strong>That has never, ever happened to me. </strong>I&#8217;ve never been able to &#8220;lead&#8221; one person to the Lord. Does that make me a terrible Christian?</p>
<p>I know Christians are supposed to be &#8220;in the world and not of it.&#8221; I always got the impression that the life of a Christian would look different than that of a non-Christian&#8211;in a positive way. However, when I evaluate my life, I&#8217;m troubled that I can&#8217;t tell a marked difference than that of my neighbor who doesn&#8217;t go to church. And I don&#8217;t mean simply n a public level; I also take my private life into consideration. I don&#8217;t get on my knees by my bed to pray every night. In fact, my prayers are sometimes quick requests made in passing throughout the day. I don&#8217;t have consistent devotions daily. (There&#8217;s that lack of consistency thing again.) I can sometimes go days without talking to God or reading His word. I know my eternal salvation doesn&#8217;t depend on me (and thank God it doesn&#8217;t because I&#8217;m doing a lousy job right now) but James emphasizes &#8220;faith without works is dead&#8221; (2:17, 26). What good is the salvation I have if I don&#8217;t put it into action? My life in Christ needs to be alive and vibrant&#8211;and I&#8217;m at a total loss as to how to do that. (Remember my little problem with consistency and regularity?)</p>
<p>I want to be different for God. I want to be a God-honoring Christian. I want to put my faith in action. I want to have a close, personal relationship with God. I want to revere God better than I revere any celebrity but I also want to be comfortable with Him like He&#8217;s my &#8220;homie.&#8221; So comfortable I can cry, &#8220;Abba, Father, Daddy&#8221; (Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:6) in the most personal and familiar of terms.</p>
<p>Until then, I feel as though I am back at square one like when I was Catholic 12 years ago&#8211;CINO. I am hungry and desperate for a savior. I want&#8211;perhaps need&#8211;to accept Jesus all over again. Maybe daily.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t consistency key?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Now playing: <a title="'Sara Groves - Maybe There's A Loving God' - open on FoxyTunes Planet" href="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/sara+groves/track/maybe+theres+a+loving+god">Sara Groves &#8211; Maybe There&#8217;s A Loving God</a><br />
<span style="color:#999999;font-style:italic;font-size:10px;">via <a style="color:#666666;" title="FoxyTunes - Web of music at your fingertips" href="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/">FoxyTunes</a></span></p>
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<title><![CDATA[This Was Your Prosperity Gospel Life! (Part 2 of 10)]]></title>
<link>http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/this-was-your-prosperity-gospel-life-part-2-of-10/</link>
<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 06:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>ektachrome</dc:creator>
<guid>http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/this-was-your-prosperity-gospel-life-part-2-of-10/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[&#8220;Workin&#8217; too hard can give you A heart attackackackackackack&#8221;]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><a href="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/twypgl-p2rs.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-1731" title="TWYPGL - p2rs" src="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/twypgl-p2rs.jpg" alt="This was your prosperity gospel life page 2" width="500" height="265" /></a></p>
<p><a href="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/twypgl-p3rs.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-1732" title="TWYPGL - p3rs" src="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/12/twypgl-p3rs.jpg" alt="This was your prosperity gospel life page 3" width="500" height="269" /></a></p>
<p style="text-align:center;">&#8220;Workin&#8217; too hard can give you</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">A heart attackackackackackack&#8221;</p>
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<title><![CDATA[This Was Your Prosperity Gospel Life! (Part 1 of 10)]]></title>
<link>http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/this-was-your-prosperity-gospel-life-part-1-of-10/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>ektachrome</dc:creator>
<guid>http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/this-was-your-prosperity-gospel-life-part-1-of-10/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Exploring what may happen when Your Best Life Now ends&#8230; Presented Chick tract-style in 10 part]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p style="text-align:center;">Exploring what may happen when <em>Your Best Life Now</em> ends&#8230;</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">Presented Chick tract-style in 10 parts.</p>
<p><a href="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/twypgl-front-cover-rs.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-1722" title="TWYPGL - front cover - rs" src="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/twypgl-front-cover-rs.jpg" alt="This was your prosperity gospel life." width="500" height="280" /></a></p>
<p><a href="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/twypgl-p1rs.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-1723" title="TWYPGL - p1rs" src="http://ektachrome.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/twypgl-p1rs.jpg" alt="This was your prosperity gospel life, page 1" width="500" height="266" /></a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Mark Driscoll on Joel Osteen]]></title>
<link>http://gbtg.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/mark-driscoll-on-joel-osteen/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Matthew R. Perry</dc:creator>
<guid>http://gbtg.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/mark-driscoll-on-joel-osteen/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Driscoll takes about 10 minutes to describe and dissect the most popular preacher in the world, Joel]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div style="display:inline;float:none;margin:0;padding:0;" id="scid:5737277B-5D6D-4f48-ABFC-DD9C333F4C5D:afab96b6-f2aa-4a61-8112-254738c8d60c" class="wlWriterEditableSmartContent">
<div><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/7IuiUOapK1w&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/7IuiUOapK1w&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></div>
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<blockquote><p>Driscoll takes about 10 minutes to describe and dissect the most popular preacher in the world, Joel Osteen.&#160; We must be very discerning!</p>
</blockquote>
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<title><![CDATA[Why Many Modern American Evangelicals Don’t Like Reformed Baptist Preaching]]></title>
<link>http://eggusblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/why-many-modern-american-evangelicals-don%e2%80%99t-like-reformed-baptist-preaching/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Bill Brown</dc:creator>
<guid>http://eggusblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/why-many-modern-american-evangelicals-don%e2%80%99t-like-reformed-baptist-preaching/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[This was originally posted by James White on the Reformed Baptist Fellowship Blog. Humanists with a ]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>This was originally posted by James White on the <a href="http://reformedbaptistfellowship.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/why-many-modern-american-evangelicals-dont-like-reformed-baptist-preaching/">Reformed Baptist Fellowship Blog</a>.</p>
<p>Humanists with a thin coating of religion won’t put up with this for long.</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/gub5uaiT3fo&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/gub5uaiT3fo&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
<p>Reformed Baptist Churches tend to be between 50 and 350 congregants in size, generally. Here is a contrast. A “church” with 16,000 in attendance. Listen to the message.</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/di9-PebV634&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/di9-PebV634&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
<p>While I did not add the text to this video, the final verse provided says it all.</p>
<address><em>James White</em></address>
<address><em><a href="http://www.prbc.org/" target="_blank">Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church</a></em></address>
<address><em><a href="http://www.aomin.org/" target="_blank">Alpha and Omega Ministries</a></em></address>
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<title><![CDATA[Eşşəyin bilmədiyi]]></title>
<link>http://emajidli.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/donkey/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 06:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>emajidli</dc:creator>
<guid>http://emajidli.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/donkey/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[və ya Eşek hoşaftan ne anlar İstər yazılı, istərsə şifahi xalq ədəbiyyatında eşşək obrazının nə vaxt]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[və ya Eşek hoşaftan ne anlar İstər yazılı, istərsə şifahi xalq ədəbiyyatında eşşək obrazının nə vaxt]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[Is the economic downturn Osteen's fault? (a link to an article in The Atlantic)]]></title>
<link>http://roberttalley.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/is-it-economic-downturn-osteens-fault-a-link-to-an-article-in-the-atlantic/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>roberttalley</dc:creator>
<guid>http://roberttalley.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/is-it-economic-downturn-osteens-fault-a-link-to-an-article-in-the-atlantic/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[An interesting take on the prosperity gospel.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200912/rosin-prosperity-gospel">An interesting take on the prosperity gospel. </a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Justin Peters - A Call for Discernment DVD ]]></title>
<link>http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/justin-peters-a-call-for-discernment-dvd/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
<guid>http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/justin-peters-a-call-for-discernment-dvd/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Please watch the preview of this video.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>Please watch the preview of this video.</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/21YYN2E7xkY&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/21YYN2E7xkY&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Comparison: Rick Warren vs. Truth... Is Purpose Driven Church Deceptive?]]></title>
<link>http://truthinator.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/comparison-rick-warren-vs-truth/</link>
<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>truthinator</dc:creator>
<guid>http://truthinator.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/comparison-rick-warren-vs-truth/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Deception Driven Church? You decide&#8230;   Stuart L. Brogden compiled this comparison between wha]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div><img src="http://www.crosstalkblog.com/wp-content/themes/WhosWho/timthumb.php?src=http://www.crosstalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/RickWarren.jpg&#38;h=120&#38;w=120&#38;zc=1&#38;q=100" alt="Reader’s Digest Drops Rick Warren Connection" width="129" height="152" /> Deception Driven Church? You decide&#8230;</div>
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<div>Stuart L. Brogden compiled this comparison between what Relevant Rick teaches in <span style="text-decoration:underline;">Purpose Driven Church</span> and what the Bible teaches.</div>
<div>
<p>All the work of all men contains error.  That I perceive error in Rick Warren’s work is not note worthy.  But the repeated patterns of false teaching over 20 or more years and 25 million or so books combine for something to take notice of.  This book proclaims an Armenian, man-centered view of the world and its Creator, claiming all the while to be a Biblically sound God-centered work.  I think it is actually Biblically bankrupt, gilded with the false gospel of pragmatism.  As subtle and dangerous as the serpent in the garden, Warren calls us to believe a lie.</p>
<p>Curious – Many people have criticized Rick Warren by calling him a disciple or associate of Robert Schuller.  Warren has denied in this in myriad letters and articles, wanting to put distance between himself and the father of “possibility thinking”.  So why does Warren include Schuller’s effusive endorsement of this book (on the third page of the endorsements in the front of the book)?  And why does so much of Warren’s instruction sound so much like Schuller (see quotes at the end of this review)?</p>
<p>“The Purpose Driven Church” (PDC) is a humanistic, psychological view of how to handle a church, sprinkled with scripture in whichever translation or version can most easily be used to allegedly support Warren’s claims.  Whereas “The Purpose Driven Life” started out with a truth and spent itself in contradiction, so does PDC – claiming rightfully (page 14) “Only God makes the church grow” – and spending nearly 400 pages telling man how to manipulate people into something that only looks like church growth.</p>
<p>The foreward is a sugary sweet, sappy tribute from a once credible W.A. Criswell.  In his opening statement, Criswell declares that “God could not have a given me a more beloved and effective ‘son in the ministry’ than Rick Warren.”  You know a man is wrong when he limits God or assigns human characteristics to Him.  Criswell claims Saddleback “has grown <em>without compromising the mission or the doctrine</em> of a New Testament church.”  (Italics in the original.)  We shall see.  Criswell parrots the Schuller/Warren principal – “If churches are to be successful in evangelizing our society, which is becoming more pagan by the day, they must learn to think like an unbeliever.”  (Sic)  Right there, Criswell shows that he has lost sight of the New Testament church.</p>
<p>In what appears to be the introduction, Warren tells us the church must “look for the spiritual waves” of church growth, saying “because our churches haven’t been taught the needed skills, we are missing the spiritual waves that could bring revival, health, and explosive growth to our churches.”  Evidently, Warren’s Bible is not adequate instruction to the church or its members on the topic of spiritual outreach and discipleship.  He shows us right off that he is focused on “growth”.  And in this introduction, as well as throughout the book, Warren pays lip service to God while heralding and teaching humanistic methods.</p>
<p>It appears, even in the introduction, that Warren has slipped into an Armenian worldview, saying churches need to ask, “What barriers are blocking the waves God wants to send our way?”  (pages 15 &#38; 16)  Poor, God Almighty – needs the church to move barriers out of the way.  Warren tells us (page 17) “the key issue for churches in the twenty-first century will be church <em>health</em>, not church growth.”  He then goes on to tell us, same page, that he’s “been a student of growing churches” for over twenty years. </p>
<p>On page 18, Warren rightly lauds the Bible, and then declares, “My greatest source of learning, however has been watching what God has done in the church I pastor.”  This pragmatic view – study men and how to motivate them &#8211; pervades this whole book, and everything of Warren that I’ve read.</p>
<p>In Part One, page 26 &#38; 27, Warren reciprocates Criswell’s sappy sweet foreword, quoting a Criswell prayer/prophecy of church growth for Warren, convinced that God had called him to pastor a church – sounding much like a mutual admiration society.  Warren admonishes us (page 27) to not “copy things we did without considering the context”, but to look at the “transferable principles”.  We will see what these “transferable principles” are shortly. </p>
<p>Still on page 27, Warren states, “Very little of Saddleback’s ministry was preplanned.”  Remember this claim.  He then devotes the balance of chapter 1 describing all the planning that went into the “planting” of Saddleback.  His research led Warren to conclude that the pastor is the key figure in the health and growth of the church, describing the pastor as the “daddy” of the church!  Any church that has this view of its pastor has already failed. </p>
<p>In spite of telling us that only God grows the church, Warren’s research drew him to the fastest growing population center in the country, a fact that “grabbed me by the throat and made my heart start racing.”  Lots of people moving into an area typified by upper middle class Americans certainly set a solid stage for numerical growth – a very pragmatic view. </p>
<p>On page 38, Warren recommends a list of preachers he heard on the radio.  While several on Warren’s list are sound pastors, he recommends to his reader Robert Schuller and John Wimber as well.  No disciple of Christ should recommend these false teachers to anyone, much less the wide and long term audience of a book. </p>
<p>And on the next page, Warren says that, with Saddleback, he ”determined to <em>begin</em> with unbelievers, rather than a core of committed Christians.”  Consider this statement carefully.  In the first case, the church is comprised of believers, not those who don’t believe.  By purposefully refusing to build his church surrounded by mature saints, there was nobody to hold Warren accountable as a preacher.  Who in this group of lost folks that he gathered could understand anything spiritual?  The Bible tells us those who are lost cannot discern spiritual matters.  A “pastor” with only lost people in his “church” is no pastor.  What Warren started was an evangelistic outreach to middle class lost Americans – not a church.  Near the end of this page Warren tells us he spent <em>12 weeks</em> studying lost folks in order to know what his “church” should be like.  “No planning” went into the founding of Saddleback, he told us.  Studying heathens, rather than scripture, was how he planned Saddleback.  Apparently without any elders or other biblical safeguards, he was swept away by one of the “spiritual waves” he was surfing for.</p>
<p>Page 44 – “pastor” Warren excitedly recounts how Saddleback “caught a wave”, when over 200 heathens showed up to the service designed with them in mind.  While many churches have operated in temporary settings, Warren touts Saddleback’s “homeless” years as if they were a special virtue.  Thankfully, he recounts a proper understanding of the Great Commission (page 46), yet he leaves this reader wondering how many of his “seekers” make it around the “bases” to becoming a “servant-hearted Christian.” </p>
<p>Starting on page 47, Warren uses “conventional wisdom” to create several straw-man myths to knock down.</p>
<ul>
<li>“Myth #1: The Only Thing That Large Churches Care About Is Attendance.”  While many have rightfully pointed out the tendency of many large churches to focus too much attention on attendance, I have never heard of any rational person saying it’s the <em>only</em> thing.  Warren’s own words, with the series of “if” statements leave out the essential bit of the Gospel, wherein the lost are confronted with their sin and the attendant need of a Savior.  He “validates” his Gospel-lite by observing, “it’s happening all over the world.”  On page 49 we are told that “Intentionally setting up a strategy and a structure to force ourselves to give equal attention to each purpose is what being a purpose-driven church is all about.”  None of Warren’s 5 listed purposes (page 49) convey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.</li>
<li>Myths 2, 3, &#38; 4: Once again, Warren touts all-or-nothing myths that are, in truth, common failings among many churches.  In talking about purpose #4, Warren discloses that his view of church discipline consists of dropping from membership those rogues who fail to fulfill the membership covenant.  I don’t think that’s what the Lord tells us in Matthew 18.</li>
<li>“Myth #5: If You Are Dedicated Enough, Your Church Will Grow.”  Any pastor who believes this “myth” has lost sight of Who builds the church.  To counter “good, godly pastors” who are dedicated yet have churches that are not growing, Warren provides a prescription that follows the same rabbit trail as his “myth” – relying on human effort.</li>
<li>“Myth #7: All God Expects of Us Is Faithfulness” In the short list that follows, Warren tells us we must also bear fruit (true) and makes it sound as if we can make ourselves be fruitful.  Bearing spiritual fruit is the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of saints, not a trait the person can develop.</li>
</ul>
<p>Let me take a break and say that I think pages 64, 65, 68 – 79, and 393 &#38; 394 are sound teaching.  Not all in this book is worthless or dangerous, but even these passages are mere “spiritual cotton candy”.</p>
<p>On page 77, Warren uses metaphorical, non-Biblical definitions to build a case for churches being driven.  In Scripture, the word drive and derivatives are used in conjunction with people being punished.  Those being treated kindly by God are led, as sheep, not driven.  Context is key to proper interpretation, and Warren strips a word out of its Biblical context and uses its tertiary meaning to lay the foundation for his whole trademarked “driven” model, pulling people away from the Biblical view of how God leads His children.</p>
<p>Near the bottom of page 79, Warren gives a welcome warning to not “allow seekers to drive the total agenda of the church.” – but I must confess that this book, as a whole, leads me to believe Warren allows “seekers” to drive entirely too much of his church’s agenda. </p>
<p>After listing, on pages 77 – 79, seven things that should not drive churches (tradition, personality, finances, programs, buildings, events, and seekers), he reveals, on page 80, “What is needed today are churches that are driven by purpose instead of by other forces.”  And, “You must begin to look at everything your church does through the lens of five New Testament purposes”.  Warren’s 5 purposes are culled from scripture, but, again, churches and saints are to be led by the Spirit of God – not driven by anything.  And his 5 purposes are not “the lens” of the Word.</p>
<p>On pages 86 &#38; 87, Warren uses different Bible paraphrases to ensure the word “purpose” is used.  On page 91, he tells us that the church in Philippi was “captivated by Paul’s mission” (Philippians 4:15); whereas Paul makes it clear that he preached Christ crucified and resurrected – people were captivated by Christ and led by His Spirit, not Paul’s “mission”.</p>
<p>On page 93, we are pointed to scripture for the correct question, but led to Warren’s self-proclaimed mentor, heathen business guru Peter Drucker, for the diagnostic standard: “Your church’s purpose statement must become the standard by which you measure your congregation’s health and growth.”  Oops.  I thought the Bible and the Holy Spirit give us everything needed to live a righteous life in Christ Jesus (2 Peter 2:1 – 3)</p>
<p>Page 95: Warren tells about a church that he claims was “theologically sound” and “sound asleep”.  He says, “the church leaders had become lazy and lethargic.”  That does not sound like a “theologically sound” church to me.  It appears to be labeled as such to create a straw man to be knocked down by Warren.</p>
<p>On the next page, Warren tells us, “Prior to starting Saddleback Church I took six months to do an extensive, personal Bible study on the church”.  Remember page 27 – not much planning went into Saddleback?  As part of Warren’s Bible study on the church, about a third of his listed scripture passages are from the four Gospel accounts – they describe Christ’s life, but not the church.  Remember – most of the life of Christ took place <em>before</em> the New Testament church was founded.</p>
<p>In Part Two, Warren describes “the 5 purposes for the church” – Biblically sound purposes but not completely sound in his exposition on them.  “Purpose #3: Go and make disciples.  This purpose we call <em>evangelism</em>.”  One must indeed evangelize (preach the Gospel to) lost folks before they can be discipled, but the focus of this aspect of the Great Commission is on the making of disciples – not evangelism.  Seeker sensitive churches are widely critiqued as being ineffective in discipleship – this error may explain that, in part.</p>
<p>In describing Saddleback’s purpose statement, Warren notes “three important distinctives”, the first of which is, “it is stated <em>in terms of results</em> rather than in terms of activity.”  This is a common failing of man – trying to control the results of his activities; pragmatism defined.  (From John MacArthur: “What is pragmatism?  Basically it is the philosophy that results determine meaning, truth, and value–what will work becomes a more important question than what is true.  As Christians, we are called to trust what the Lord says, preach that message to others, and leave the results to Him. But many have set that aside.  Seeking relevancy and success, they have welcomed the pragmatic approach and have received the proverbial Trojan horse.”)  Throughout His Word, God calls His people to obedience – not to results.  Often, the results He brings about are not what man expects or would seek.  I believe the Biblical pattern is to remind us that our efforts have no merit before God – only the work of Jesus does. </p>
<p>On page 109, Warren sums up his argument for your church to adopt his purpose-driven model by saying, “To do less <em>is to leave to chance</em> the great responsibility we’ve given by our Lord Jesus Christ.”  (emphasis mine)  This is another glimpse into what appears to be Warren’s Armenian view of God.  And if recommending Schuller and Wimber are not enough, Warren touts David (or Paul) Yonggi Cho’s occult Central Church in Seoul, Korea.  This man has written &#8220;You can create the presence of Jesus with your mouth.  He is bound by your lips and by your words.&#8221;  He and Schuller are fans of one another and disciples of the risen Lord Jesus should view neither of them credibly.</p>
<p>In chapter 6, Warren teaches pastors how to communicate their purposes.  He reviews the narrative of Nehemiah’s rebuilding of the wall around Jerusalem and discovers what he calls, “the Nehemiah principle”.  Since the Jews working on the wall grew discouraged after 26 days of work, Warren projects that onto every church and declares, “<em>Vision and purpose must be restated every twenty-six days to keep the church moving in the right direction.</em>”  Certainly, a degree of repetition is a hallmark of effective communication.  But the larger issue is that of deriving a key principle from a narrative contained in scripture.  This is a dangerous practice, the best example I can think of being Bruce Wilkerson’s subtly deceptive book, “The Prayer of Jabez”.</p>
<p>On pages 113 and 114, Warren encourages good personal management techniques – once again showing how to create “good results” by manipulating people and calling it God’s work.  “People tend to do whatever gets rewarded, so make heroes of people in your church when they do the work of the church.”  God tells us not to seek the applause or rewards of men, but to trust God who is faithful to reward those walk by faith, not by sight.  Biblical leadership often flies in the face of accepted “good personal management techniques.”</p>
<p>Warren stays on track into chapter 7, opening with a story about George Whitfield and John Wesley.  Whitfield preached 18,000 sermons to 100,000 people but left no organization behind, whereas Wesley left us the Methodist denomination – as if what we can see today determines the value of the work these men did.  And as far as I can tell, the Lord Jesus did not leave us much of an organization – what would Warren say about His legacy?  Further in this chapter, pages 126 &#38; 127, Warren recommends false teachers among others who are Biblically sound.  Check out the teachings of Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, and Peter Wagner – men who think themselves modern prophets and apostles of the church. </p>
<p>In discussing Saddleback’s “5 Circles of Community”, pages 131 and following, Warren tells us he focuses evangelism efforts on those who have already attended his church.  He is either derelict in failing to send witnesses out into the lost world or admitting his “church” is fairly well full of lost folks.  He admits that a heathen cannot worship God, but is “convinced that genuine worship is a powerful witness to unbelievers if it is done in a style that makes sense to them.”  Genuine worship is a spiritual act and impossible for a lost person to comprehend.  But note that Warren emphasizes the <em>style</em> of worship, as if the emotional connection with the music can save anyone.  And this from a man who adamantly maintains style and methods don’t matter in justifying his use of all sorts of culturally relevant music and drama.  He goes on to say, “If an unbeliever makes a commitment to regular attendance at Saddleback, I believe it will be just a matter of time until he accepts Christ.”  With Warren’s declared determination to avoid preaching the law or anything that would convict a lost person of his sin, one wonders what in Saddleback would cause anyone to be saved.  Time hanging with supposed saints won’t save anyone unless the Gospel is preached – which does not appear to happen at Saddleback.</p>
<p>On page 133, Warren describes Saddleback’s membership covenant, which requires “a commitment to three spiritual habits: (1) having a daily quiet time, (2) tithing ten percent of their income (Nowhere in scripture are Christian instructed – even implicitly – to tithe, but give as the Spirit of God leads and not under compulsion. &#8211; 2 Corinthians 9:6 &#38; 7), and (3) being active in a small group.”  This sounds like the chains of legalism – whereas the Bible tells Saints to be led by the Spirit in such matters.  He sets up this disclosure by describing people who are “dedicated to growing in discipleship” … “but they have not yet gotten involved in ministry.”  This is a contradiction in terms, indicating that pastor Rick has a non-Biblical definition of discipleship. </p>
<p>Warren says, “Jesus started where people were – at their level of commitment – but he never left them there.”  I do not see this when I read the Bible: lost folks have NO commitment to Christ.  He says Jesus “didn’t lay any heavy requirement” on John and Andrew, but every Jewish boy <em>knew</em> the total commitment required when a Rabbi bid one, “come”.  Further on page 135, Warren claims that Christ did not issue “his ultimate challenge to the crowd” until these people had hung around Him for three years and saw the ways in which He loved them.  “Jesus was able to ask for that kind of commitment only after demonstrating his love for them and earning their trust.”  Unlike sinful man, Jesus the Christ does not need to <em>earn</em> anything before He speaks Truth to anyone.  Warren puts too much emphasis on the lost person rather than on the Gospel. </p>
<p>In chapter 8, Warren tells us “There are ten areas you must consider as you begin to reshape your church into a purpose-driven church.”  Where in Scripture are pastors advised to “reshape” the churches they shepherd?  He says he cautions other churches to <em>not</em> clone Saddleback, yet lists 10 mandatory “principles”, 5 purposes, and his own “circles of influence” that these churches must embrace.  “Notice that I suggest you grow your church from the outside in, rather than from the inside out.”  Read the book of Acts – the church was made up of saints and disciples who were sent out into the cities, the reverse of what Pastor Rick suggests.  “The problem I have found with an ‘inside-out’ approach is that by the time the church planter has ‘discipled’ his core, they have often lost contact with the community and are actually afraid of interacting with the unchurched.”  This is another indication that Pastor Rick knows very little of Biblical discipleship, but at least gives credit for this backwards idea where it is due – false apostle C. Peter Wagner!</p>
<p>On page 139, we find out that the first year of Saddleback, when ostensibly everyone was lost except (?) Pastor Rick, he “preached very simple, straightforward evangelistic series such as ‘Good News About Common Problems’ and ‘God’s Plan for Your Life.’”  There are pop-psychology messages with a Bible flavor – not evangelistic, or Gospel, presentations.  How can he say that “most of them (the 200 attenders) were brand new believers.” considering his messages?  God’s Word shows the error of this approach: “<em>Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man&#8217;s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  <strong>But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.</strong></em>”  1 Corinthians 2:12 – 14</p>
<p>In a highlight box on page 156, we are admonished, “Never criticize any method that God is blessing!”  Yet all the criteria Warren urges us to use are that which the eye can see, and ignores the Biblical command to “<em>test all things, hold on to that which is good</em>” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), with “good” being in accordance with God’s view.  On page 157 we are urged to use market research to determine “when, where, and how” evangelism should be pursued and on page 158 tells us a church “driven by market forces rather than the Word of God” will be “unstable and unbiblical.”  One page is wrong, one is right. </p>
<p>Page 160, Warren continues in his study of man as first priority: “I must pay as much attention to the geography, customs, culture, and religious background of my community as I do to those who live in Bible times if I am to faithfully communicate God’s Word.”  The Word of God cannot be understood or communicated unless one seeks to know the literal, grammatical, and historical context of the text.  Nobody in scripture paid that much attention to the spiritually dead people they encountered.  They proclaimed the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus and commended men to believe on Him!</p>
<p>Pastor Rick advises us to tailor the presentation based on the worldly concerns our “crowd” is perceived as having – resulting in a false gospel that might as well be delivered by Joel Osteen.  By telling lost folks how God can make their marriage better, we teach people to look to the Lord for temporal rewards that satisfy our flesh.  But in truth, lost people need to know they are dead in sin, convicted by the Law, so they might realize their deepest need and cry out to the Lamb of God for mercy.  If “god” makes their life more comfortable and they are not confronted with their rebellion against the Holy Creator God, we have made their path to hell all the more pleasant – heaping judgment on ourselves (James 3:1).</p>
<p>Opening up chapter 10, page 173, Warren declares, “Even a casual reading of the New Testament will show that the Gospel spread primarily through relationships.”  Relationships are important, but the Gospel was and is spread through the <em>preaching</em> of it – mostly to people the preacher knows only superficially.  In the next page, we are told, “The people your church is most likely to reach are those who match the existing culture of your church.”  This is true if you do not make disciples and send them out into the world to proclaim the Gospel to all tongues and nations.  The church is not intended to be a reflection of the culture – it is, by definition, counter culture and intended to make a difference in the world.  Warren’s advice is for the church to be conformed to patterns of the world, contrary to Romans 12:1 – 2.</p>
<p>Pastor Rick reinforces this un-Biblical nonsense on pages 188 – 189, where we are told to think like lost people.  This is Warren’s interpretation of the scriptural mandate to “understand the times”?  He shows a shallow view of the Lord: “Jesus <em>often</em> knew what unbelievers were thinking.  He was effective in dealing with people because he understood and was able to defuse the mental barriers they held.”  (emphasis mine)  We are to believe that Jesus sometimes did not know what people were thinking – a limited God.  Warren tells us Christ relied on popular psychological theory in order to effectively deal with His creatures.  And we are once again told, “We must learn to think like unbelievers in order to win them. … “The problem is, the longer you are a believer, the less you think like an unbeliever.”  The Bible tell us the old man is dead – we have been re-born as children of God and are now “a peculiar people”; that we are to be salt and light; that lost folk love darkness because their deeds are dark; and that we are not to hide our light under a bushel.  Pastor Rick thinks the church exists to be valued by pagans!  Paul gives a different prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:3 – 6: “<em>But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus&#8217; sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.</em>”</p>
<p>You can read many objections from Rick Warren anytime someone publicly associates him with Robert Schuller.  But again, on page 190, Warren shows us how big an impact Schuller had on him.  It should not be a surprise that so many of Schuller’s people pleasing ways are embraced and endorsed by Warren.  Near the bottom of Page 191, this pearl: “The unchurched aren’t asking for watered-down messages, just practical ones.  They want to hear something on Sunday that they can apply on Monday.”  Warren’s idea of church is to help lost folks have a better life, according to the world’s standard.  The Creator’s idea of church is for the saints to come together for worship, discipleship, fellowship, and be sent into the world proclaiming the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus.  And yes, we welcome lost people into the church – we simply don’t expect them to be comfortable there.  They should be confronted with the Word of God and their sinful nature.</p>
<p>Warren’s own “tale of success” in the early days of Saddleback tells the sad truth in what is left unsaid.  He defined Saddleback as “a church for the unchurched”, and he attracted many of them, summing up with, “You have to decide who you want to impress.”  Warren wants to impress lost folk – his charge, however, is to honor God.  On page 195: “This is the heart of Saddleback’s evangelism strategy: We must be willing to catch fish on their own terms.”  Fish don’t want to be caught!  And lost men do not seek after God.  His Word doesn’t tell us to be on the same wavelength as lost men, He tells us to be fishers <em>of</em> men – different from them, with a mission they cannot understand.  Warren tells us (page 197) that he has determined that Jesus had no “standard approach” in evangelism.  He is talking about “style points”, not content or motive.  I am convinced that a careful reading of the New Testament shows that Jesus did have a “standard approach.  Evangelist Ray Comfort sums it up thusly – “With the Law we break the proud heart; with the gospel we heal the broken heart.”  And, “If we care about the lost, we will not hesitate to speak to them about sin, righteousness, and judgment … the way Jesus did.”  In Mark 10:17 – 22, the Lord used the law to expose the rich man as idolater, in John 5:45 – 47, Jesus confronts the Jews with the accusation of the Law of Moses.  In John 4:4 – 26 the Lord seeks out the woman at the well and uses the law to gently confront her with her sin – violating the 7<sup>th</sup> commandment.</p>
<p>On page 219, Pastor Rick says, “Jesus often established a beachhead for evangelism in a person’s life by meeting a felt need.”  And he cites not one example &#8211; because there are none.  Dr. Luke records this encounter with the “crowd”: “<em>And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them<strong>, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.</strong>  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.</em>”  (Luke 14:25 – 27)  The Apostle John recorded this encounter (John 6:24 – 27):  “<em>When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.  And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, <strong>Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.</strong>  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.</em>”  And in verses 52 – 61: ”<em>The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.  This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.  These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.  Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?  <strong>When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?</strong></em><strong>” </strong> Culminating in verses 65 &#38; 66: “<em>And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. <strong> From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.</strong></em>”</p>
<p>Jesus doesn’t sound like Rick Warren.  To Whom shall we listen?</p>
<p>Ever the pragmatist, Warren tells us (page 224) that a passage in Luke 4 is all about Jesus “meeting needs and healing hurts.”  Jesus used that well known passage from Isaiah to establish His claim as Messiah, not “meet needs or heal hurts”.  On page 230, he beats the same drum: “The unchurched are not asking that we change the message or even dilute it, only that we show its relevance. …  I’ve found that the unchurched in America are very interested in Bible doctrine when it is applied in practical and relevant ways to their lives.”  What I’ve observed is that lost folks – whether they be “churched” or “unchurched” – want their ears tickled.  They want to be told that God loves them and wants them to be healthy and wealthy – things that are “practical and relevant”.  This is why prosperity gospel pimps such as T.D. Jakes and Joel Osteen can fill up stadiums!  The Word of God tells us to preach the simple Truth and not work to earn the approval of men.  Lost folk do not need motivational messages on how to “live large with Jesus” – they need to repent and be saved.</p>
<p>Warren thinks (page 232) that the major purpose of Christ’s parables was to entertain folk and ensure they would remember His story.  But in Matthew 15, Mark 4, Mark 7, Luke 8, John 10 and other passages, His very own disciples failed to understand the parable and sought an explanation.  And while Pastor Rick cites Matthew 13:34, he did so as a proof-text, as verse 35 makes clear: He spoke in parables to fulfill scripture, not to satisfy the felt needs of unchurched Harry.  But if His purpose was as Warren claims, why did so many people need – and still need – an explanation of them?  To close this question, the Lord Himself gives us the answer in Matthew 13:10 – 13 (<strong><em>And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because</em></strong><em> <strong>it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. </strong> For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.</em>)  And Luke 8:9 – 10 (<em>And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?  And he said, <strong>Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand</strong>.</em>)</p>
<p>On page 241, “America’s Pastor” tells us “More people are won to Christ by <em>feeling God’s presence</em> than by all our apologetic arguments combined.”  This is a false argument: apologetics is not what wins people to Christ – the Gospel does that.  It is by preaching the Word of the Lord that people are saved – not by feeling anything.  He ascribes the salvation of the 3,000 people recorded in Acts 2 to their having felt God’s presence.  But the Bible makes it clear that the Spirit of God empowered Peter and it was the Word of God proclaimed by Peter that caused the response.  Read Acts 2:1 – 36 to see the set-up and the message of Christ crucified.  Then in verses 37 &#8211; 41: “<em>Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?  Then <strong>Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins</strong>, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.  <strong>Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.</strong></em>”</p>
<p>Do you perceive these people were saved by having “felt God’s presence” or by the Word of God piercing their sinful hearts?</p>
<p>Page 243, Warren joins countless seeker sensitive fans by misappropriating 1 Corinthians 14:23.  Paul’s main argument was not to restrict the use of tongues so lost people wouldn’t think them foolish – this is a final argument in Paul’s long, passionate discourse against the improper use of this spiritual gift.  His main point was to encourage the saints to speak in a known tongue so others in the church could understand them.  It’s almost “and by the way, don’t you see how a heathen who might wander in here could think you mad?”  It was not normative in the early church for lost people to fill up the meeting place.  The church was of and for believers.</p>
<p>On pages 244 and 245 Warren furthers his humanistic view that unchurched people ought to have their felt needs addressed from the pulpit.  He again tells us these unchurched “expect to hear the Bible when they come to church.”  How would such a person know what to expect from the Word of God?  Go back to 1 Corinthians 2:12 – 14.  Pastor Rick tells us “They are looking for solutions, not a scolding.”  The problem for Rick and other seeker sensitive pastors is that unless a lost person is confronted with his condition (being dead is sin) he will not see any value in the Lamb of God.  The Gospel is not a scolding – but neither is it offering solutions to life’s circumstantial problems.  Warren instructs, “Design one worship service to edify believers and another service to evangelize the unchurched friends brought by your members.”  He then describes how he has marginalized the Saints by devoting weekends at Saddleback to lost folks.  We can readily surmise that Saddleback is a church on Wednesday evenings, but not on Saturdays or Sundays.</p>
<p>In chapter 14 – Designing a Seeker-Sensitive Service, Warren once again relies on and recommends a false prophet to make his point – citing “Apostle” Peter Wagner on page 267:  “When you run out of space, you experience what Pete Wagner calls ‘sociological strangulation’.”  But many churches have experienced true fellowship and spiritual growth while struggling with the logistical constraints of what experts see as too little space.  My wife heard a pastor in such a situation say, “Some pastors think you need 200 square feet per person.  We have 200 people per square feet!”  And he was praising God – not complaining about being “sociologically strangled.”</p>
<p>On to chapter 16 – Preaching to the Unchurched, Pastor Rick says, “The common ground we have with unbelievers is not the Bible, but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings.”  This is fine guidance on how to start a fraternal organization, such as a Rotary Club – the Bible tells us that unbelievers’ greatest need is salvation.  That we saints share some of the same sinful “habits and hang-ups” as the “unchurched” can be an encouragement to the lost, as we teach them that <em>all</em> are unworthy apart from Christ.  Nowhere in this chapter does Pastor Rick advise the use of the law to convict people of their sin; he only wants the lost folk to know they are valuable and loved, etc.  They may well go to hell thinking this, having never been convicted of sin or saved by grace.  Good feelings save nobody.</p>
<p>On page 312, Warren poses a handful of questions that unchurched people want answered before they are willing to join the church:</p>
<ul>
<li>Do I fit here?</li>
<li>Does anybody want to know me?</li>
<li>Am I needed?</li>
<li>What is the advantage of joining?</li>
<li>What is required of members?</li>
</ul>
<p>Rick shows us, once again, that his focus is on growing the “church” by answering the “felt needs” of the flesh – not following the Biblical mandate on how to lead a flock of believers.  He is building a social fraternity and calling it “church”.</p>
<p>In chapter 16 – Turning Members into Ministers, Warren mixes some solid Biblical instruction with a humanistic, Jungian psychological matrix appraisal of people – his five SHAPE factors.  A detailed comparison of Warren’s SHAPE to Jungian psychology and God’s Word can be found at the end of this review.</p>
<p>Page 384, Warren again confirms he sees man as more important than does our Creator: “The most critical factor in a new ministry isn’t the <em>idea</em>, but the <em>leadership</em>.”  Jesus, the most important human ever, said this about Himself vs. the message (or idea): “<em>When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that <strong>I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things</strong>.</em>  (John 8:28)”, “<em>but I have called you friends; for <strong>all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you</strong>.  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,</em> (John 15:15b – 16a).”  The Bible tells us the main thing is the message, not the messenger.</p>
<p>Lastly, page 395 – “Purpose-driven churches are led by purpose-driven leaders.”  Although I care nothing for Warren’s penchant for using “purpose-driven”, leave it aside.  Consider this – Churches are led by leaders.  Now consider the Words of the One Who “wrote the Book” on “how to do church”:  “<em>Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.</em></p>
<p><em>And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”</em>  (2 Timothy 2:1 – 2)  And recall the Words of Jesus, above – He spoke and worked only what His Father told Him.  <strong>The only leadership is from God and the truly effective pastor will be purposeful and Spirit led.</strong></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Quotes from Schuller – or is it Rick Warren?</span></p>
<p>Rick Warren denies virtually every connection and influence with or of Robert Schuller.  But judge for yourself – read a few choice quotes from Schuller and see if Warren’s teaching doesn’t line up near perfectly.  Read more at <a href="http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm">http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm</a></p>
<p><span style="text-decoration:underline;"> </span></p>
<p><strong>&#8220;Yes, here is a theology for church growth.  Here is a theology for success, for the secret of success is to find a need and fill it.  Truly, when the church reforms and refines all of its theological expressions around every person&#8217;s daily need for self-affirmation, it shall flourish &#8216;like trees planted by rivers of water.&#8217;&#8221;  (Robert Schuller, &#8220;Self-Esteem: the New Reformation,&#8221; page 175)</strong></p>
<p><strong>&#8220;People who have studied our work and read our materials have said that historically we are not like other churches.  Denominations and religions started with teaching a theology about God.  Whenever there was disagreement with each other about a certain detail, the result was to establish a new religion or branch thereof, so today there are many different denominations and lots of different religions.  When I started this ministry, I chose to focus on human need and said, </strong></p>
<p><strong>&#8220;Let&#8217;s ask what a human being really is?  What does he need?&#8221;  And is there a God who can provide for those needs and what kind of God does he need?  So we started talking about the needs in humanity and we defined the single deepest need of the human being.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p><strong>(Robert Schuller, &#8220;Mirror or Window People: Which Are You?”  August 2, 2004)</strong></p>
<p><strong>&#8220;Classical theology has erred in its insistence that theology be &#8216;God-centered,&#8217; not &#8216;man-centered&#8217;.&#8221;  (Robert Schuller, &#8220;Self-Esteem: the New Reformation,&#8221; page 64) </strong></p>
<p>&#8220;The classical error of historical Christianity is that we have never started with the value of the person.  Rather, we have started from the &#8216;unworthiness of the sinner,&#8217; and that starting point has set the stage for the glorification of human shame in Christian theology.&#8221;  (Robert Schuller, &#8220;Self-Esteem: the New Reformation,&#8221; page 162)</p>
<p><a href="http://brogdensmuse.menofhonorministry.org/">Home</a></p>
<p>CHARTING THE WARREN-JUNG CONNECTION</p>
<h1> </h1>
<p>(extracted from <a href="http://www.sacredsandwich.com/warren_jung_chart.htm">http://www.sacredsandwich.com/warren_jung_chart.htm</a>)</p>
<h1>THEIR CONNECTION ON PERSONALITY THEORY</h1>
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<td width="32%" valign="top"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
<td width="32%" valign="top"><strong>JUNG</strong></td>
<td width="33%" valign="top"><strong>BIBLE</strong></td>
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<td width="32%" valign="top">“When you minister in a manner consistent with the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">personality</span> God gave you, you experience <span style="text-decoration:underline;">fulfillment</span>, satisfaction, and fruitfulness.” (The Purpose Driven Life, p. 246)“…when you are forced to minister in a manner that is “out of character” for your <span style="text-decoration:underline;">temperament</span>, it creates tension and discomfort, requires extra effort and energy, and produces less than the best results. This is why mimicking someone else’s ministry never works. You don’t have <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">their</span></em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"> personality</span>.” (PDL, p. 245)</td>
<td width="32%" valign="top">“…the ultimate aim and strongest desire of all mankind is to develop that <span style="text-decoration:underline;">fulness</span> (sic) of life which is called <span style="text-decoration:underline;">personality</span>… To the extent that a man is untrue to <span style="text-decoration:underline;">the law of his being</span> and does not rise to personality, he has failed to realize his <span style="text-decoration:underline;">life’s meaning</span>.” (The Development of Personality, Collected Works 17; from The Essential Jung, pg. 191, 207)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">There is absolutely no biblical precedent for this position. Personality typology has <em>never</em> been a criteria for God choosing someone for ministry, but is in great part grounded in Jungian psychology. Did Paul rely on personality assessment to guide his ministry? Hardly&#8230;</p>
<p>“God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are, that no man should boast before God.” 1 Cor 1:27-29</p>
<p>“And He has said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.’ Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ&#8217;s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.” 2 Cor 12:9-10</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON A MUTUAL BELIEF IN THE &#8220;UNCONSCIOUS&#8221;</strong></div>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
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<h2>JUNG</h2>
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<h1>BIBLE</h1>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“You may be driven by a painful memory, a haunting fear, or an <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconscious</span> belief.” (PDL, p. 27)“(Guilt-driven people) often <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconsciously</span> punish themselves by sabotaging their own success.” (PDL, pp. 27-28)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“The <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconscious</span> . . . is the source of the instinctual forces of the psyche and of the forms or categories that regulate them, namely the archetypes.” (The Structure of the Psyche, CW 8, par. 342)“Constant observation pays the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconscious</span> a tribute that more or less guarantees its cooperation. One of the most important tasks of psychic hygiene [is] to pay continual attention to the symptomatology of <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconscious</span> contents and processes.” (The Portable Jung, New York: Penguin Books, 1986, p. 156)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">The “unconscious” is the foundational concept of both Freudian and Jungian psychology, and has no biblical basis whatsoever. In fact, Scripture does not allow for the idea that people are “driven” by an “unconscious belief.” By endorsing the idea of the unconscious, Warren is promoting the Jungian belief that people must analyze the forces of the unconscious to discover their life’s purpose. According to Scripture, any driving force outside of God’s will is sin, no matter where it resides. Psychology, however, downplays our personal accountability for sin by making the “unconscious” the ultimate reservoir and bastion of unavoidable human instinct.</p>
<p>“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: <span style="text-decoration:underline;">for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.</span>” Romans 14:23</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON UNCONSCIOUS METAPHORS &#38; IMAGES</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“If I asked how you picture life, what image<em> </em>would come to your mind? That <span style="text-decoration:underline;">image</span> is your <span style="text-decoration:underline;">life metaphor</span>. It’s the view of life that you hold, <span style="text-decoration:underline;">consciously or</span> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconsciously</span>, in your mind.” (PDL, pp. 41-42)“Your <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unspoken life metaphor</span> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">influences</span> your life more than you realize. It <span style="text-decoration:underline;">determines</span> your expectations, your values, your relationships, your goals, and your priorities.” (PDL, p. 42)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“An archetypal content expresses itself, first and foremost, in <span style="text-decoration:underline;">metaphors</span>.” (“The Psychology of the Child Archetype,” CW 9i, par. 267)Archetypes are not inborn ideas, but “typical forms of behaviour which, once they become <span style="text-decoration:underline;">conscious</span>, naturally present themselves as <span style="text-decoration:underline;">ideas</span> and <span style="text-decoration:underline;">images</span>, like everything else that becomes a content of <span style="text-decoration:underline;">consciousness</span>.” (Collected Works 8, par. 435)</p>
<p>“Indeed, the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">fate of the individual</span> is largely dependent on <span style="text-decoration:underline;">unconscious factors</span>.” (“Conscious, Unconscious, and Individuation” CW 9)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">The analysis of “metaphors” housed in the unconscious is a trademark concept of psychology, not of Scripture. The use of images, fantasies, and dreams to better understand our “unconscious” is a signature feature of Jungian psychotherapy that borders on the occult.</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON USING JUNGIAN TERMINOLOGY</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
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<td width="34%"><strong>BIBLE</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“God made <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">introverts</span></em> and <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">extroverts</span></em>… He made some people <em>‘<span style="text-decoration:underline;">thinkers</span>’ </em>and others <em>‘<span style="text-decoration:underline;">feelers</span>.’” </em>(PDL, p. 245)“Your personality will affect <em>how</em> and <em>where</em> you use your spiritual gifts and abilities. For instance, two people may have the same gift of evangelism, but if one is <span style="text-decoration:underline;">introverted</span> and other is <span style="text-decoration:underline;">extroverted</span>, that gift will be expressed in different ways.” (PDL, p. 245)</p>
<p>“Ask yourself questions:… Am I more <span style="text-decoration:underline;">introverted</span> or <span style="text-decoration:underline;">extroverted</span>? Am I more a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">thinker</span> or a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">feeler</span>?” (PDL, pp.251-252)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“Two types (of typical differences in human psychology) especially become clear to me; I have termed them the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">introverted</span> and the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">extraverted</span> types.” (“Introduction” Psychological Types, CW 6 par. 1)“I have found from experience that the basic psychological functions, this is, functions which are genuinely as well as essentially different from other functions, prove to be <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">thinking</span>, <span style="text-decoration:underline;">feeling</span>, sensation</em>, and <em>intuition</em>. If one of these functions habitually predominates, a corresponding type results. I therefore distinguish a thinking, a feeling, a sensation, and an intuitive type. <em>Each of these types may moreover be either <span style="text-decoration:underline;">introverted</span> or <span style="text-decoration:underline;">extraverted</span>…</em>” (“Introduction” Psychological Types, CW 6)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">Warren is explicitly using the specific terminology of the psychological typology theory originally conceived by Carl Jung. Despite the claims of his supporters, Warren has clearly based his Personality Theory (the &#8220;P&#8221; in his SHAPE teaching) on the unbiblical foundation of Jungian psychology.“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8</p>
<p>“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.” 1 Cor 2:12-13</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON THE FOUR TEMPERAMENTS</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“The Bible gives us plenty of proof that God uses all types of personalities. Peter was a <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">sanguine</span></em>. Paul was a <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">choleric</span></em>. Jeremiah was a <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">melancholy</span></em>. When you look at the personality differences in the twelve disciples, it’s easy to see why they sometimes had interpersonal conflict.” (PDL, p. 245)“There is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ <span style="text-decoration:underline;">temperament</span><em> </em>for ministry.” (PDL, p. 245)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“…the physicians of ancient times…tried to reduce the bewildering diversity of mankind to orderly groups… The very names of the Galenic <span style="text-decoration:underline;">temperaments</span> betray their origin in the pathology of the four “humours.” <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Melancholic</span></em> denotes a preponderance of black bile, <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">phlegmatic</span></em> a preponderance of phlegm or mucus, <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">sanguine</span></em> a preponderance of blood, and <em><span style="text-decoration:underline;">choleric</span></em> a preponderance of choler, or yellow bile.” (“Psychological Typology” CW 6)“The whole make-up of the body, its constitution in the broadest sense, has in fact a very great deal to do with psychological <span style="text-decoration:underline;">temperament</span>…” (“Psychological Typology” CW 6)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">Despite Warren’s claim, the Bible never gives “proof” of the classification of personalities; it is a purely pagan concoction. The four temperaments, as conceived by Hippocrates and later developed by Galen, was a prevalent Greek philosophy during the time of Paul’s apostolic ministry. Unlike Warren and Jung, however, Paul did not implement these Greeks ideas into his teachings. In fact, he categorically rejected them and “determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified” (I Cor 2:2).“O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:” I Timothy 6:20</p>
<p>Worse yet, Warren is teaching that a person’s “no right or wrong” personality is somehow unaffected by the fall and is always beneficial for ministry. How, we ask, does a “phlegmatic temperament” towards laziness and slothfulness serve God’s purpose in ministry?</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON PERSONALITY TESTING</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
<td width="33%"><strong>JUNG</strong></td>
<td width="34%"><strong>BIBLE</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“Today there are many books and tools that can help you understand your personality so you can determine how to use it for God.” (PDL, p. 246)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">MBTI is “based on Jung’s theory of psychological types.” (Isabel Briggs Myers, Introduction to Type, Palo Alto, CA: Consulting Psychologists Press, 1983, p.4)“The (MBTI) Indicator was developed specifically to carry Carl Jung’s theory of type (Jung, 1921, 1971) into practical application.” (Dr. Gordon Lawrence, People Types &#38; Tiger Stripes, p. 6, also p. x)</p>
<p>“Carl Jung’s psychology lies behind&#8230;the MBTI.” (Robert Innes, Personality Indicators and The Spiritual Life, p.8)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">Without qualifying this statement, Warren is promoting any and all Jungian personality and temperament tests and theories, including the widely-used Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI), the Kiersey Temperament Sorter (an offshoot of the MBTI), and the Enneagram Test, which has its origin in Sufism, a mystical offshoot of Islam. (Click <a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0146a.html" target="_blank">here</a> for more information on Enneagram).Despite the contrary advice offered by Warren, Christians must acknowledge the Bible as the only book needed to understand the human condition:</p>
<p>“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12</p>
<p>(See also II Timothy 3:16-17)</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON THE ENDORSEMENT OF PSYCHOLOGY</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
<td width="33%"><strong>JUNG</strong></td>
<td width="34%"><strong>BIBLE</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“Every behavior is motivated by a belief, and every action is prompted by an attitude. God revealed this thousands of years <span style="text-decoration:underline;">before psychologists understood it</span>.” (PDL, p. 181)</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“(Unconscious phenomena) manifest themselves in the individual’s behaviour… ” (“Conscious, Unconscious, and Individuation” CW 9)“Modern psychological development leads to a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">much better understanding</span> as to what man really consists of.” (“Psychology and Religion” CW 11)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">Warren is suggesting here that psychologists have the same understanding as God on the issue of human behavior, thus putting man’s “wisdom” on equal footing with God’s revelation.If Warren truly believes in the preeminence of God’s revelation to understand man, then why does he rely so heavily on the “useless wisdom” of psychology instead of Scripture?</p>
<p>“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, ‘He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS‘; and again, ‘THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.’” I Cor 3:19-20</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>THEIR CONNECTION ON FINDING AND DEVELOPING PERSONALITY</strong></p>
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<td width="33%"><strong>WARREN</strong></td>
<td width="33%"><strong>JUNG</strong></td>
<td width="34%"><strong>BIBLE</strong></td>
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<td width="33%" valign="top">“The best use of your life is to serve God out of your shape. To do this you <span style="text-decoration:underline;">must discover your shape</span>, learn to <span style="text-decoration:underline;">accept</span> and <span style="text-decoration:underline;">enjoy</span> it, and then <span style="text-decoration:underline;">develop it</span> to its fullest potential.” (PDL, p. 249)The SHAPE program states: “To <span style="text-decoration:underline;">discover your S.H.A.P.E.</span> is to discover where God is calling you to do His work in the world.”</td>
<td width="33%" valign="top">“Only the man who can <span style="text-decoration:underline;">consciously assent to the power of the inner voice</span> becomes a personality.” (“The Development of Personality” CW 17)“The <span style="text-decoration:underline;">achievement of personality</span> means nothing less than the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">optimum development</span> of the whole individual human being.” (“The Development of Personality” CW 17)</p>
<p>“In so far as every individual has the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">law of his life</span> inborn in him, it is theoretically possible for any man to follow this law and to <span style="text-decoration:underline;">become a personality</span>, this is, to <span style="text-decoration:underline;">achieve wholeness</span>.” (“The Development of Personality” CW 17)</td>
<td width="34%" valign="top">Finding your SHAPE has no biblical support. Warren’s teaching that one must “discover his shape” is philosophically and systematically akin to Jung’s teaching that a man must “consciously assent to the power of the inner voice” and be true to “the law of his being.”While Warren has rightly acknowledged God’s sovereign purpose in creating us, he has mistakenly made God’s divine purpose synonymous with our so-called “shape” by advocating the Jungian idea of developing the personality to “achieve wholeness.” This Jungian process, however, does not serve God, but serves the god within us.</p>
<p>Scripture calls for an active, heartfelt obedience to God’s will through the transforming power of the Spirit, not a misguided exploration of our natural psychological makeup to define our God-given purpose.</p>
<p>“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” Proverbs 3:5-6</p>
<p>“…your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.” 1 Cor 2:5</td>
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<hr size="2" /><strong>CONCLUSION: THIS IS NOT SIMPLY &#8220;GUILT BY ASSOCIATION&#8221;</strong></p>
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<td width="100%">Yes, Jesus associated with sinners, but he certainly didn&#8217;t borrow his teachings from the Pharisees or any other false teachers. Clearly there is a very tangible connection between Rick Warren&#8217;s SHAPE teaching on personality and the psychological theories of Carl Jung. Not only does Warren base his teachings on parallel psychological concepts, but he uses <em>exact</em> Jungian terms to make his case. By focusing on assessing and developing one’s personality as the key to a successful life or ministry, Warren, like Jung, is promoting a reliance on one’s inner self instead of on God’s transcendent truth and the working of the Holy Spirit. As a popular Christian teacher, how can Warren ignore the crucial biblical truths of the sufficiency of Scripture and the power of the Holy Spirit to perfectly furnish every Christian with the ability to minister according to God&#8217;s purpose?</td>
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</table>
<p> Stuart L Brogden <a href="http://brogdensmuse.menofhonorministry.org/">Home</a></p>
<h6><span style="color:#ffffff;">Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren Purpose Driven Rick Warren</span></h6>
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<title><![CDATA[Oprah and the Evangelical Church: Where Is the Difference?]]></title>
<link>http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/oprah-and-the-church/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
<guid>http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/oprah-and-the-church/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Ranked as the world&#8217;s most influential woman, Oprah Winfrey is undoubtedly a woman who has ins]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p style="text-align:justify;"><a href="http://www.guyhepner.com/pieces/daniel-edwards-the-celebrity-series-a-k-a-the-inspire-america-series-the-oprah-burial-mask"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-2384" style="border:0 none;" title="Oprah Burial Mask" src="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/daniel-edwards-the-celebrity-series-a-k-a-the-inspire-america-series-the-oprah-burial-mask.jpg" alt="" width="497" height="113" /></a></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Ranked as <a href="http://www.time.com/time/2001/influentials/">the world&#8217;s most influential woman</a>, Oprah Winfrey is undoubtedly a woman who has inspired millions with not only her wisdom, her wide circle of connections, but also with her very own rags to riches story.  Although much ink has been spilled over <a href="http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2008/11/oprah-and-ed-bacon-attack-doctrine-dogma-and-thought.html">her questionable influence</a> in <a href="http://www.oprah.com/article/spirit/knowyourself/pkgyourspirit/20090114_sas_spirituality_101">matters of spirituality</a>, this post is not about her, instead it is about the church.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">In 2005 <a href="http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&#38;BarnaUpdateID=189">a national survey</a> of pastors was conducted, asking each of them to name the books that have most influenced them.  <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310276993?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=agrwo-20&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=1789&#38;creative=390957&#38;creativeASIN=0310276993"><em>The Purpose-Driven Life</em></a> was the most frequent response.  Authored by America&#8217;s pastor, <a href="http://www.rickwarren.com/">Rick Warren</a>, the book which has sold the most copies of any book in print, excepting only the Bible.  Warren, who has amassed significant wealth as a result, retains a significant level of influence including the ear of the President of the United States.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Here is where we play the game regularly found in copies of the children&#8217;s magazine <a href="http://www.highlights.com/"><em>Highlights</em></a>: circle the differences in these two pictures.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<h2>It&#8217;s a Little Hard to Tell</h2>
<p style="text-align:justify;"><a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/oprah-mag.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-2389" title="Oprah Mag" src="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/oprah-mag.jpg?w=250" alt="" width="250" height="300" /></a>On the cover of this month&#8217;s issue (November 2009) of <a href="http://www.oprah.com/magazine/omagazine"><em>O: the Oprah Magazine</em></a> is a byline touting the phrase &#8220;Who Are You Meant to Be?&#8221;  Standing in the line at the checkout of our local Target store, I made a bet with my wife: this article must have been written by purpose-driven himself.  Alas, my wallet was a bit lighter because instead of <a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/good-bye-rick-warren/">Rick Warren</a>, this was a series of articles written by a number of people with a handsome number of different perspectives on the topic.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Oprah herself begins the series, talking about her own humble beginnings and her determination to be something more than her surroundings dictated.</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align:justify;">I believe there&#8217;s a calling for all of us.  I know that every human being has value and purpose.  The real work of our lives is to become aware.  And awakened.  To answer the call.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align:justify;">No doubt that Oprah, deep down inside, believes that the strength of her determination has made her what she is.  Literally living in the lowest parts of society, she wanted to have more and to be more than she was.  However, it was not just her belief and determination that made her special.  She also had ability, talent, tenacity, and other character qualities that gave her an edge.  She is also intelligent with a great voice and charismatic personality.  Plenty of other women and men have believed and worked very hard, but have not achieved the stature of wealth and influence that is Oprah.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">This bell rings with a similar pitch to what we hear in churches these days.  <a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/lies-of-joel-osteen/">Joel Osteen</a> is one who is eager to hold himself up is <a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/its-your-time-osteen/">his best example of a life that can lived to its fullest potential</a>.  What Oprah seems to forget is that if we all became her, then who would be at home to watch?  If we all stood at the top then who would be there to support us?</p>
<h2 style="text-align:justify;">Tapping Into the True Self</h2>
<div class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 128px"><img title="Anne Lamott" src="http://www.marinmagazine.com/core/includes/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/Marin-Magazine/March-2007/Everyday-Miracles/0307-FYI_Books01.jpg&#38;w=610&#38;q=100" alt="" width="118" height="164" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Author, Ann Lamott</p></div>
<p style="text-align:justify;">&#8220;We already are&#8230; who we were born to be,&#8221; says <a href="http://www.barclayagency.com/lamott.html">Anne Lamott</a> who has written books called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385496095?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=agrwo-20&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=1789&#38;creative=390957&#38;creativeASIN=0385496095"><em>Traveling Mercies</em></a> and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159448287X?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=agrwo-20&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=1789&#38;creative=390957&#38;creativeASIN=159448287X"><em>Grace (Eventually)</em></a>, both of which have been acclaimed by Christians as raw and real thoughts on being a Christian.  In her article which appears immediately after Oprah&#8217;s introduction, does not mention Christ or the church, even in passing.  Yet she freely acknowledges what many a purpose-driven pastor is hesitant to say: to preach this message, no god is required.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Lamott shares what seems to be a &#8220;spiritual&#8221; way to seek for the inner self, the inner purpose, and ultimately the inner peace.  She encourages readers to seek deep within to find what is really true for them and how they can live in resonance to the rhythm that their life is playing.  &#8220;I pray that your awakening comes with ease and grace,&#8221; she says, offering no divine connection at all.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Finding purpose in life is something that, when you listen closely, <a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/warren-and-dawkins-on-purpose/">Rick Warren</a> agrees does not require God.  <a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/warren-and-dawkins-on-purpose/">In his TED talk</a>, he encouraged those unbelievers he was talking to by telling them that &#8220;God smiles when He sees you be you.&#8221;  In essence he tells people who are successful without God that it is their very success that is driving them toward God&#8217;s favor.</p>
<h2 style="text-align:justify;">I Don&#8217;t Need God for That</h2>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Just this week I had a conversation with my mother-in-law about her son whose recent reason for not wanting to attend church was that being good does not require a god.  He cited the Code of Hammurabi and how it predated the Ten Commandments by 400 years, and how that code was not given by God.  She was frustrated with him, but I assured her that he is right.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">After catching her breath, I explained that when we begin to think of Christianity as simply a way to find our purpose in life and to live that life with impeccable morals, well he is exactly right.  No where is there an indication that the Code of Hammurabi was divinely inspired.  Not a single connection is made between the story of the Bible and the giving of that moral code.  Other than the first commandments which are unique to monotheism, the Ten Commandments are contained within not only the Code of Hammurabi, but also the scores of other such codes for conduct.</p>
<p><a href="http://lunchboxsw.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/i-kissed-moralism-good-bye/">Christianity is not moralism.</a></p>
<p>Christianity is not about self-actualization or finding my life&#8217;s purpose.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Today is Friday, November 20th, 2009.  Today Oprah Winfrey will address her throngs and tell them that she is ending her talk show within the year.  What will be next?  She may decide to join the likes of Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Steven Furtick, Creflo Dollar, and Joyce Meyer and begin her own ministry.  And why not?  If &#8220;pastors&#8221; preach the same message on Sunday that she has been giving people five days a week, it will be a walk in the park for Oprah.</p>
<h2 style="text-align:justify;">I DO Need God for This</h2>
<p style="text-align:justify;">If what we mean by self-actualization we mean that when reading the Bible you realize that at your core you are a wretched sinner in desperate need for a savior.  After all, if we do work out the journey of self-actualization to its stated goal, that is all we will find.  It is the message of the layers of rules and regulations that protesters enjoy reminding Christians of when having moral debate. To teach that at the core of every human is a beautiful purpose not only undermines the teaching of the Bible, but when we lie in bed at night, we know it violates our very existence.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">This is indeed bad news: it is the news that there is nothing good within me and there is no part of me that seeks good.  Yet, it is that core realization which opens wide the doors to the love of Christ and the Gospel.  When we are able to face the bad news, the good news is truly just that.  It is the reality of our sin that displays the beauty of what Christ has done.  It is as simple as the placards that people hold up during basketball games: John 3:16.  &#8220;For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&#8221;  Only when we embrace the bad news is the Good News sweet.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">The Gospel is not about being good enough.  The Gospel is not about finally finding your life&#8217;s purpose.  And the Gospel does not end.  Christianity is about the sacrifice of Christ being enough, and that nothing else matters.  The Gospel says that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you any more and nothing you can do to make God love you any less.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">This is what Christ has to offer.  Anything else is counterfeit.</p>
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<title><![CDATA[It's Your Time]]></title>
<link>http://mikesaturday.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/its-your-time/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>mikesaturday</dc:creator>
<guid>http://mikesaturday.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/its-your-time/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[It’s Your Time Joel Osteen ACTIVATE YOUR FAITH, ACHIEVE YOUR DREAMS INCREASE IN GOD&#8217;S FAVOR Ge]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><strong><a href="http://www.emmaus-road.com/item/osteen-joel/its-your-time/606783.html"><img class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-651" title="It's Your Time" src="http://mikesaturday.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/its-your-time.jpg?w=98" alt="" width="98" height="150" /></a><a href="http://www.emmaus-road.com/item/osteen-joel/its-your-time/606783.html">It’s Your Time</a><br />
</strong><em>Joel Osteen</p>
<p></em></p>
<hr size="1" noshade="noshade" />ACTIVATE YOUR FAITH,<br />
ACHIEVE YOUR DREAMS<br />
INCREASE IN GOD&#8217;S FAVOR</p>
<p>Get your hopes up. Raise your expectations. Expect the unexpected. In challenging times, it may be hard to see better days ahead.</p>
<p>You may feel as though your struggles will never end, that things won&#8217;t ever turn around for you.</p>
<p>This is exactly the moment when you should seek and expect God&#8217;s blessings.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s your time to declare your faith, to look for God&#8217;s favor and to give control of your life to Him so that you can find fulfillment in His plans for you!</p>
<p>View other <strong><a href="http://www.emmaus-road.com/index.php?module=productsearch&#38;query=Joel+Osteen&#38;product_config=">Joel Osteen</a> Products</strong></p>
<p>Get <strong>It’s Your Time </strong>at<strong> </strong><strong><a href="http://www.emmaus-road.com/">Emmaus Road Christian Store</a> -  </strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.emmaus-road.com/606783">http://www.emmaus-road.com/606783</a></strong></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Charismatic Chaos]]></title>
<link>http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/charismatic-chaos/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Alan Higgins</dc:creator>
<guid>http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/charismatic-chaos/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Following my videos on Give me the Truth Part 1 and Part 2 and my post on &#8216;Did God actually sa]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>Following my videos on <a href="http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/give-us-the-truth/" target="_blank">Give me the Truth Part 1</a> and <a href="http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/give-us-the-truth-part-2/" target="_blank">Part 2</a> and my post on <a href="http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/did-god-actually-say-that/">&#8216;Did God actually say that?</a>&#8216; I realise that the things mentioned in these posts happen predominantly in charismatic circles where I came from. Now let me say from the very start that not everything in charismatic churches is bad as there is bad in every church and I would agree with John Macarthur when he says:</p>
<blockquote><p>I&#8217;m very much aware of the fact that not everyone who is associated with the Charismatic movement is engaged in the kind of extreme error that we will be, from time to time, referring to.  There are people who are more moderate.  There are people within the Charismatic movement who, themselves, are very, very concerned about the heresies and the aberrations that exist within that movement</p></blockquote>
<p>However, there are so many things in there which is error that we cannot ignore it.</p>
<p>Here are some classic examples</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/2L-8582151M&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/2L-8582151M&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
<p>Now there may be somethings below that you may not agree with but on the whole, I think that John Macarthur hits it right on the head. You can listen to each sermon by clicking on the appropriate link or download it by right clicking on the link and saving the files. </p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-53.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Still Give Revelation?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-54.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Still Give Prophecies?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-55.mp3" target="_blank">Proper Biblical Interpretation</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-56.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Do Miracles Today?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-57.mp3" target="_blank">The Third Wave</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-58.mp3" target="_blank">How Do Spiritual Gifts Operate?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-59.mp3" target="_blank">What Was Happening in the Early Church?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-60.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Still Heal?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-61.mp3" target="_blank">Speaking in Tongues</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-62.mp3" target="_blank">What Is True Spirituality?</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-63.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Promise Health and Wealth? Part 1</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-64.mp3" target="_blank">Does God Promise Health and Wealth? Part 2</a></p>
<p><a href="http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-52.mp3" target="_blank">Does Experience Determine Truth?</a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[My American Dream is becoming a Nightmare]]></title>
<link>http://allmylifeforsale.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/my-american-dream-is-becoming-a-nightmare/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>scampatrol</dc:creator>
<guid>http://allmylifeforsale.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/my-american-dream-is-becoming-a-nightmare/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[No Money. No Job. No end in sight. I know I am not alone, but sometimes it feels that way. Desperate]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>No Money. No Job. No end in sight. I know I am not alone, but sometimes it feels that way.</p>
<p>Desperate times call for desperate measures and I am about as desperate as it gets at this point in my life. I have made a bold decision to sell everything I have aquired throughout the years. I need the money to support my family more than I need all of this &#8220;stuff&#8221;.</p>
<p>From the trivial to the important, I will be posting items for sale up here each day for all to see and purchase if you so choose. I am sad, but most of all I am hopeful. In the words of Joel Osteen &#8220;It&#8217;s God&#8217;s will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty. It&#8217;s God&#8217;s will for you to pay your bills and not be in debt.&#8221; My short term goal is to pay my bills. My long term goal is to live in prosperity with and for my famliy.</p>
<p>&#160;</p>
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<title><![CDATA[Why Many Modern American Evangelicals Don't Like Reformed Baptist Preaching by James White]]></title>
<link>http://davidjosephhorn.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/why-many-modern-american-evangelicals-dont-like-reformed-baptist-preaching-by-james-white/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>davidjosephhorn</dc:creator>
<guid>http://davidjosephhorn.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/why-many-modern-american-evangelicals-dont-like-reformed-baptist-preaching-by-james-white/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Why Many Modern American Evangelicals Don&#8217;t Like Reformed Baptist Preaching 11/18/2009 &#8211;]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><h1>Why Many Modern American Evangelicals Don&#8217;t Like Reformed Baptist Preaching</h1>
<p>11/18/2009 &#8211; James White</p>
<p>Humanists with a thin coating of religion won&#8217;t put up with this for long.</p>
<p>&#160;</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/gub5uaiT3fo&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/gub5uaiT3fo&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span></p>
<p>Reformed Baptist Churches tend to be between 50 and 350 congregants in size, generally. Here is a contrast. A &#8220;church&#8221; with 16,000 in attendance. Listen to the message.</p>
<p><span style='text-align:center; display: block;'><object width='425' height='350'><param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/di9-PebV634&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' /><param name='allowfullscreen' value='true' /><param name='wmode' value='transparent' /><embed src='http://www.youtube.com/v/di9-PebV634&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;hd=0' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' allowfullscreen='true' width='425' height='350' wmode='transparent'></embed></object></span><br />
While I did not add the text to this video, the final verse provided says it all.</p>
<p>07:39:44 &#8211; Category: <a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?catid=17">Reformed Baptist Issues</a> &#8211; <a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3630">Link to this article</a> -</p>
<p>This blog was copied from <a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3630">http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3630</a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Los abogados del pecado, J.T. Audio]]></title>
<link>http://vozcomotrompeta.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/los-abogados-del-pecado-j-t-audio/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>vozcomotrompeta</dc:creator>
<guid>http://vozcomotrompeta.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/los-abogados-del-pecado-j-t-audio/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Hoy en día hay unos pastores que señalan de legalistas a todo aquel que denuncia el pecado en las ig]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[Hoy en día hay unos pastores que señalan de legalistas a todo aquel que denuncia el pecado en las ig]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[Joel Osteen: the prosperity gospel and positive thinking]]></title>
<link>http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/joel-osteen-the-prosperity-gospel-and-positive-thinking/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>pjmiller</dc:creator>
<guid>http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/joel-osteen-the-prosperity-gospel-and-positive-thinking/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Positive thinking, which in one form can be said to be biblical (Philippians 4:8)  has become as twi]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><span style="color:#800000;">Positive thinking, which in one form can be said to be biblical (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%204:8&#38;version=KJV">Philippians 4:8</a>)  has become as twisted as the prosperity &#8216;gospel&#8217; itself. Both (which today are actually one and the same) teach if we do &#8220;A&#8221; &#38; follow it up with &#8220;B&#8221;, God is obligated to produce &#8220;C&#8221;. Those who teach these principles call it faith&#8211;I have always viewed it as false presumption. This kind of thinking is dependent upon what we do..our power to &#8220;move God&#8221;. That&#8217;s not faith. </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#800000;">Anyway, I came upon two items this evening, one a news item about Joel Osteen&#8217;s newest book, the other, a message written by Gary Gilley concerning a few past and present prosperity teachers, including Osteen; its well-worth reading. </span></p>
<blockquote><p>Pastor Joel Osteen&#8217;s 2004 book <em>&#8220;Your Best Life Now&#8221; </em>has sold more than 4 million copies &#8212; buoyed in part by one uplifting and irresistible message: Positive thinking and faith will lead to material success and happiness. Now he&#8217;s back with a new book and a new message for a new era: patience.</p>
<p>Back in 2005, he told <em>BusinessWeek</em> that &#8220;God&#8217;s dream is that we be successful in our careers, and that we be able to send our kids to college. I don&#8217;t mean that everyone is going to be rich, and I preach a lot on blooming where you&#8217;re planted. But I don&#8217;t have the mindset that money is a bad thing. . . I think we should have a mindset that God wants us to prosper in our relationships, our health, and our finances. God&#8217;s desire is that we excel.&#8221;</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s just been just one problem: for all the talk of the prosperity gospel and God&#8217;s tendency to impart material gain on those who have faith in him, no evidence has emerged that suggests that people who believe in God were less likely to lose their jobs, their homes or their retirement funds to the financial meltdown.</p>
<p>Enter Osteen&#8217;s latest book &#8212; sure to be a bestseller -<em>- &#8220;It&#8217;s Your Time: Activate Your Faith, Achieve Your Dreams, and Increase in God&#8217;s Favor.&#8221; </em>(source, <a href="http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2009/11/11/joel-osteen-serves-up-recession-themed-positive-thinking/?icid=main&#124;htmlws-main-n&#124;dl3&#124;link3&#124;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.walletpop.com%2Fblog%2F2009%2F11%2F11%2Fjoel-osteen-serves-up-recession-themed-positive-thinking%2F">Joel Osteen serves up recession-themed positive thinking</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>The New Age book and video by Rhonda Byrne, <em>The Secret</em>, which gained popularity recently due to Oprah Winfrey’s strong promotion, teaches that we can “create [our] own happiness through the law of attraction.”  Whether it is cash, health, prosperity or happiness, all can be ours if we will just learn to use “the secret.”  Byrne tells us, “Disease cannot live in a body that is in a healthy emotional state.” But be warned: “If you have a disease and you are focusing on it and talking to people about it, you are going to create more disease cells.”[1]</p>
<p>Such rhetoric should sound familiar to anyone even faintly aware of the Word of Faith Movement, often termed “the prosperity gospel.”  This group has been infiltrating evangelicalism for decades and is now the fastest growing segment of Christianity in the world.  Some have estimated that up to 90 percent of those claiming to be Christians in Africa are of the prosperity gospel variety.</p>
<p>Well-known personalities within the movement include Kenneth Hagin (deceased), Kenneth Copeland, Robert Tilton, Paul Yonggi Cho, Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Frederick Price, John Avanzini, Charles Capps, Jerry Savelle, Morris Cerullo, Joyce Meyer and Paul and Jan Crouch.</p>
<p>As implied by the title “Word of Faith,” the supporters of this movement believe that faith works like a mighty power or force.  Through faith we can obtain anything we want — health, wealth, success, or whatever we please.  However, this force is released only through the spoken word.  As we speak words of faith, power is discharged to accomplish our desires.</p>
<p>In <em>Christianity in Crisis</em>, Hank Hanegraaff summarizes the theology of Kenneth Hagin (considered by many to be the father of this movement) as found in his booklet <em>How to Write Your Own Ticket with God</em>:</p>
<p>In the opening chapter, titled “Jesus Appears to Me,” Hagin claims that while he was “in the Spirit,” Jesus told him to get a pencil and a piece of paper.  He then instructed him to “write down: 1, 2, 3, 4.”</p>
<p>Jesus then allegedly told Hagin that “if anybody, anywhere, will take these four steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always receive whatever he wants from Me or from God the Father.”  That includes whatever you want financially. The formula is simply: “Say it, Do it, Receive it, and Tell it.”</p>
<ul>
<li>Step number one is “Say it.” “Positive or negative, it is up to the individual.  According to what the individual says, that shall he receive.”</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Step number two is “Do it.”  “Your action defeats you or puts you over.  According to your action, you receive or you are kept from receiving.”</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Step number three is “Receive it.”  We are to plug into the “powerhouse of heaven.”  “Faith is the plug, praise God!  Just plug in.”</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Step number four is, “Tell it so others may believe.”  This final step might be considered the Faith movement’s outreach program.[2]</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Kenneth Copeland states the faith formula this way:</strong> “All it takes is 1) seeing or visualizing whatever you need, whether physical or financial;  2)  staking your claim on Scripture; and 3)  speaking it into existence.” [3]</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>Paul Yonggi Cho, pastor of the world’s largest church in South Korea , borrowing from the occult, has developed what he calls the “Law of Incubation.”  Here is how it works:  “First make a clear-cut goal, then draw a mental picture, vivid and graphic, to visualize success.  Then incubate it into reality, and finally speak it into existence through the creative power of the spoken word.”[4]</p>
<p>If a positive confession of faith releases good things, a negative confession can actually backfire.  Capps says the tongue “can kill you, or it can release the life of God within you.”  This is so because, “Faith is a seed . . . you plant it by speaking it.”  There is power in “the evil fourth dimension” says Cho.</p>
<p>Hagin informs us that if you confess sickness you get sickness, if you confess health you get health; whatever you say you get. The spoken word releases power — power for good or power for evil is the commonly held view of the movement.  It is easy to see why the title “positive confession” is often applied to this group.</p>
<p>As you might guess, the teachings of the “Word of Faith” movement are very attractive to some.  If we can produce whatever our hearts desire by simply demanding what we want by faith, if we can manipulate the universe and perhaps even God, then we have our own personal genie just waiting to fulfill our wishes.  The similarities between Word of Faith teachings and <em>The Secret</em> are unmistakable.</p>
<p><strong>The New Look:  Joel Osteen</strong></p>
<p>Many Christians can discern the obvious error of New Age teachings behind <em>The Secret</em> and similar books such as Eckhart Tolle’s <em>The New Earth</em> (another Oprah favorite), as well as the over-the-top proclamations of many within the prosperity gospel movement.</p>
<p><strong>However</strong> when similar teachings are repackaged, reworded and presented in a winsome fashion, a larger number will fall prey.  Enter Joel Osteen and his brand of the prosperity gospel-lite.  As we will see, Osteen teaches essentially the same theology as his Word of Faith mentors, but he gives it an updated twist.</p>
<p>Joel Osteen has become a household name due to his incredible success.  He “pastors” the largest church in America , Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, which in 2008 boasted average weekend atten dance of 43,500, almost double that of its nearest competitor.[5]  Osteen took the helm of Lakewood Church in 1999 upon the death of his father, John.  John Osteen was openly a prosperity gospel preacher who founded Lakewood in 1959 and had built it into a 6000 member church before his son replaced him.  Joel, who until that point had given leadership to the television ministry of Lakewood and had preached only once before, was thrust into the pulpit and immediately the church began to explode.</p>
<p>Today Lakewood services are broadcast in over 100 countries, Joel has written two multi-million seller books, and he, along with his wife, mother, and numerous musicians from Lakewood, travel throughout the world offering an event they call “A Night of Hope.”  While most churches struggle to find and keep members, people are willing to purchase $15 tickets to attend “A Night of Hope” and the auditoriums are usually packed.</p>
<p>Osteen has no theological training and it is obvious from his books, sermons and interviews on television that he has little knowledge of the Scripture.  Nevertheless, he has caught an unprecedented wave of popularity and could clearly claim the title as the most admired pastor in America .  This popularity of course is due largely to his message.  Eschewing anything controversial or negative (such as hell or judgment or even sin), Osteen proclaims a message of pure <em>positivism</em>.</p>
<p>The title of his first book, <em>Your Best Life Now</em>, summarizes what Osteen has to offer his many audiences.  If we will follow certain principles or steps (seven to be exact), so the storyline goes, our existence will be happy, healthy, and blessed with everything that would make this life wonderful.  This is a message that appeals to the flesh of unbelievers and worldly- minded Christians and would account for the superstar status that Osteen now has.</p>
<p><strong>Of course this is a harsh accusation.  I am charging Joel Osteen with being a false teacher:</strong> a man who has twisted the gospel to entice the fallen nature of people, who has turned God into a genie, and who has distorted Scripture to present a warm and fuzzy yet warped form of Christianity.  In order to see if I am correct or just being mean-spirited, we need to turn to Osteen’s actual words as found in Your Best Life Now.</p>
<p>What the reader will find in this best selling book is a mixture of common sense, helpful practical advice, and a multitude of success stories interlaced with a heavy dose of deceitful teaching.  Let’s begin with the gospel.  It is not so much that Osteen presents a false gospel (which he seems to do in Your Best Life Now) but rather, no gospel at all.  In a 300 page book which will be read by millions of unbelievers, the closest Osteen ever comes to the gospel is, “Work out your own salvation.  Salvation is more than a onetime prayer.  It is constantly working with God, dealing with the issues He brings up and keeping a good attitude, fighting through until you win the victory.”[6] What Osteen believes concerning the gospel is uncertain, but what is undeniable is that the emphasis of his ministry is maintaining a positive outlook on life rather than a right relationship with God.   Except for this one sentence, the entirety of the book is taken up with “seven steps to living at your full potential” as stated in the subtitle.   This theme resonates with the thinking of those whose lives and minds are in conformity with this world system rather than being “transformed by the renewing of our minds” (Rom 12:2).</p>
<p><strong>It really should not surprise us that men like Osteen have caught the public’s eye since they are merely telling it what it wants to hear (2 Tim 4:3) which is:</strong></p>
<p>&#8220;we need to make the best of this life, enjoy every minute we can, because this is the best it is ever going to be.&#8221;</p>
<p>This philosophy is the world’s, not God’s who consistently calls us to live for higher values than this world and self (1 John 2:15-17).  As Paul wrote to the church at Colossae, <em>“Set your mind on things above, not on the things that are on the earth”</em> ( Col 3:2).</p>
<p>Paul did not mean by this that we are to ignore life on this planet and go hide somewhere until the Lord returns.  It means that we live for a higher purpose than personal pleasure and success <em>“for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God”</em> ( Col 3:3).</p>
<p>Osteen makes no attempt to draw his readers to this higher purpose, to a life lived for God.  Instead God is to be manipulated for our own pleasure.  I think Osteen would appreciate Eliphaz’s advice to Job (later condemned by God), <em>“Yield now and be at peace with Him; thereby good will come to you”</em> (Job 22:21).</p>
<p><strong>Let’s take some looks at specifics:</strong></p>
<p><strong>The Offer</strong></p>
<p>Osteen’s attraction is found in what he is offering which is nothing less than a life of good health, abundance, wealth, prosperity and success, “If you develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness, nothing on earth will be able to hold those things from you” (p. 5).[7]  Since these are the things most people treasure and, since Jesus informed us that <em>“where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”</em> (Matt 6:21), it is predictable that the seductive promise of a map leading to these treasures would find many adherents.</p>
<p>And it certainly does.  But what specifically is being offered?</p>
<p><strong>Health </strong></p>
<p>If we follow the teachings of Osteen we can expect good health.  His mother for example was diagnosed with terminal cancer twenty years ago, but because she confessed good health she is cancer free today (pp. 126-127).  As a matter of fact, one of the highlights of the “A Night of Hope” events is the testimony by Osteen’s mother concerning her physical healing – implying of course, that those in the audience can also be healed if they will but do what Joel suggests.</p>
<p><strong>Abundance</strong></p>
<p>Osteen, without qualification, declares that all of us are destined for greatness of every kind: “You were born to win; you were born for greatness, you were created to be a champion in life” (p. 35), and abundance, “He wants you to live in abundance.  He wants to give you the desires of your heart…God is turning things around in your favor” (p. 78).</p>
<p><strong>As a matter of fact, apparently irrespective of our relationship with God,</strong> “Before we were ever formed, He programmed us to live abundant lives, to be happy, healthy, and whole.  But when our thinking becomes contaminated it is no longer in line with God’s Word” (p. 114).</p>
<p>Two things should be noted at this juncture.</p>
<p><strong>First, the Scriptures teach no such thing.</strong> While eternal life with the Lord is the ultimate destiny of the redeemed, judgment and then the lake of fire is the ultimate destiny of the lost (2 Thess 1:9; Rev 20:14-15). In the meanwhile, in this life the rain falls on the just and the unjust, and Christians may suffer as many trials as unbelievers, perhaps more (Rom 5:3-5; James 1:2-4; 2 Cor 4:8-12, 11:23-29; Heb 11:35-40).  It is true that Psalm 37:4 promises, <em>“Delight yourself in the Lord; and He will give you the desires of your heart,” </em>but upon a little reflection it will be seen that one who delights himself in the Lord desires God, not mere material blessings, good parking spots, success in business and a nice wardrobe.  Osteen’s program trivializes the abundant life Jesus came to give His followers (John 10:10).</p>
<p><strong>Secondly, when the prosperity teachers use the phrase “God’s Word,” the reader must carefully discern what is meant.</strong> Often, as in this case, “God’s Word” is not a reference to the Bible but to words spoken, supposedly by God, extrabiblically through the Word of Faith adherents.  Osteen then is not accusing people of being out of step with the Scriptures, but being out of step with the teachings of men such as himself.  This is nothing less than a claim that God has revealed His Word apart from Scripture and through prosperity leaders.</p>
<p><strong>Wealth</strong></p>
<p>“God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and creativity” (p. 5), or so Osteen promises.  How does he know this since in biblical times promotions were not common practice, fresh ideas and creativity did not carry the value they do today and wealth was not necessarily seen as a sign of God’s pleasure?</p>
<p>Someone might counter that David and Solomon were wealthy, but this was not the case for Jeremiah and Habakkuk, both godly men who lost everything.</p>
<p>Job flourished for a time, lost it all, and then gained it back.  Did one of Job’s “comforters” clue him in on prosperity philosophy?  Was that the turning point?  Hardly.  It was when Job repented of his arrogance that God restored his former affluence, and God was under no obligation to do that.  The scriptural principle is that the Lord is sovereignly at work in our lives. He can choose to bless us with riches, or He can choose to bless us by taking our riches away.</p>
<p><strong>So where does Osteen come up with the idea that “God wants to increase us financially?”</strong> His basis is in his very limited and selective experience.  He tells us, for example, that when his father was “willing to go beyond the barriers of the past [by applying the principles found in this book], he broke that curse of poverty in our family.  Now, my siblings and I, and our children, grandchildren, even great-grandchildren, are all going to experience more of the goodness of God because of what one man did” (p. 25).  Of course, millions of examples throughout the world and throughout history could be given of godly people living in poverty, and the children of the wealthy wasting their inheritance and privileges, but Osteen seems to conveniently ignore such examples.  Instead he is convinced “God wants to give you your own house” (p. 35).</p>
<p>The U.S. government and the banking system seemed to agree with Osteen until the recent economic crash.  Now they’re taking away many of those houses.  But this does not deter Osteen; he is persuaded that we will prosper.</p>
<p><strong>Prosperity</strong></p>
<p>Prosperity is more than health and wealth; it includes all the good things life can give. Apparently God is working extra hard to make life easy for us.  Osteen promises, “It’s going to happen… Suddenly, your situation will change for the better…He will bring your dreams to pass” (pp. 196-198).</p>
<p>Such statements leave no room for the cancer patient who does not get better, the factory worker who is laid off and never again finds a comparable job, the athlete who has a career-ending injury, or all those losers at the “American Idol” auditions (we can be thankful for this one at least).  Such people would have reason to question Osteen’s pronouncement that, “God didn’t make you to be average.  God created you to excel” (p. 82).  Just two minutes of reflection would unveil the fallacy of this statement.  By definition everyone cannot be above average – somebody has to be in the middle of the pack, and someone has to bring up the rear.  This kind of idea sounds like the familiar grade inflation going on in many of our schools and universities today.  If ninety percent of students all make an “A” average (which is not uncommon anymore) that does not mean that they are smarter than past students, it just means that the evaluation system has been changed so that more students (and potential employers) think they are successful.</p>
<p>In addition, did not Paul tell us that of the ones God calls there are <em>“not many wise, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise…”</em> (1 Cor 1:27)?  Our Lord seems to have standards and values that are out of alignment with Osteen’s.</p>
<p>Still Osteen insists, “You will often receive preferential treatment simply because your Father is the King of kings, and His glory and honor spill over onto you” (p. 40).  Osteen prays, “Father, I thank you that I have Your favor” (p. 41).</p>
<p>By God’s favor Osteen has in mind such earth shaking issues as finding the perfect parking spot in a crowded lot (pp. 41-42). Why a perfectly healthy middle-aged man would pray for the premier parking spot, knowing of course that someone with greater physical needs will be denied such a spot, is never explained.</p>
<p>Osteen admits God sometimes refuses to answer his parking prayer, but this “doesn’t mean that I am going to quit believing in the favor of God” (p. 43).   Osteen can’t lose.  If he finds the best spot in the lot he has God’s favor; if he circles for 15 minutes and fails in this all-important task, it is not going to derail his theology. <span style="color:#800000;"><em>(ahahaha!)</em><br />
</span><br />
<strong>Success</strong></p>
<p>“God wants you to go further than your parents” (p. 8).  This statement is made without a speck of biblical evidence.  On the contrary it was a rarity in Scripture to find a child who exceeded a godly or successful parent.  Further, the same is often true in our own experience – some children go further than their parents, others do not.  Osteen is making an unsupportable statement.</p>
<p><strong>But not to be deterred we are told</strong>, “God wants you to live an overcoming life of victory.  He doesn’t want you to barely get by.  He’s called El Shaddai, ‘the God of more than enough’” (p. 33).  On the contrary: El Shaddai is a title used for our Lord in the Old Testament which is often translated <em>“God Almighty.”</em> It speaks of the all sufficiency of God, and is a special title of reverence.  Osteen has invented his own meaning and in the process turned God into our personal sugar daddy, ready to hand out the goodies to any who think they have discovered the secret to His heart.</p>
<p><strong>Good self-image</strong></p>
<p>“God wants us to have healthy, positive self-images, to see ourselves as priceless treasures.  He wants us to feel good about ourselves… God sees you as a champion… He regards you as a strong, courageous, successful, overcoming person” (p. 57-58).</p>
<p>Really?  From what source does Osteen draw his view of self-image?  Certainly not Scripture which never mentions such a thing.  Rather than chase after good self-images Paul warns us<em> “not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment” </em>(Rom 12:3).</p>
<p>But instead of taking seriously the instruction of Scripture, Osteen is happy to chase after the fads found in pop-psychology.</p>
<p>He goes on, “When you are tempted to get discouraged, remind yourself that according to God’s Word, your future is getting brighter; you are on your way to a new level of glory” (p. 67).  Eternally this is a true statement for the child of God, but to promise such will be the case in this life is pure deception.  And since Osteen makes no distinction between the redeemed and the unregenerate in his book, he is offering a false and damning hope to most of his audience, those who do not know Christ as their Savior.</p>
<p><strong>The Belief System</strong></p>
<p>Upon what does Osteen base his belief system?  It is certainly not Scripture for the Bible never teaches anything remotely similar to this prosperity brand of Christianity.  That is not to say that <em>Your Best Life Now</em> is totally devoid of biblical references, but the few that are attempted are almost all hopelessly out of context or twisted beyond recognition.</p>
<p>Osteen gives notice early and often that his views are not drawn fundamentally from Scripture but from his experiences and those of others.  Still, in the introduction Osteen writes, “Within these pages, you will find seven simple, yet profound, steps to improve your life, regardless of your current level of success or lack of it.  I know these steps work, because they have worked in the lives of my family members, friends, and associates, as well as in my own life” (p. viii).</p>
<p>Osteen supports his thesis through the use of numerous success stories of one type or another.  Some of his stories are impossible and/or at best incapable of being documented and therefore raise a red flag concerning his integrity. Others are highly selective examples of happy endings. As a result of such stories Osteen can promise that, if his theories are embraced, “suddenly, things will change, suddenly, that business will take off.  Suddenly, your husband will desire a relationship with God.  Suddenly, that wayward child will come home.  Suddenly, God will bring your hopes and dreams to pass” (p. 199).</p>
<p>Or maybe not!  Inexplicably (given his belief system and insistence that God will bring prosperity to our lives if we follow the formula) Osteen must admit that all things do not end in success.  Both his sister and father experienced the failure of divorce (pp. 151, 176), some people are not healed (pp. 181-182), things don’t always work out the way we desire (pp. 207-209), his father suffered kidney failure and was on dialysis for years (p. 247) and died of a heart attack (p. 248).</p>
<p>While Osteen declares “God does not send problems” he admits that “sometimes He allows us to go through them” (p. 205).  But the fact is that even in Osteen’s story-theology world the people of God suffer the same ups and downs, successes and failures, health and sickness and so forth as the unbeliever.  One has only to glance through the Psalms to realize that this is not our “best life now.”  We live in a corrupt world and until the Lord returns our sin-tainted universe will often disappoint and grieve us. Stories of success (and failure) can be lined up from here to eternity, but such stories are not the basis of truth, or of life; the Word of God is.</p>
<p><strong>The Methods</strong></p>
<p>Drawing, however, from many selective stories, and ignoring what God has to say, Osteen presents a methodology that he promises will produce a life of abundance, success, health and affluence.  This system is not unique to Osteen, having come almost verbatim from the prosperity teachers mentioned above, but he has taken this false teaching to a new audience.  Let’s examine how the program works.</p>
<p><em>There are three basic steps to “your best life now.”</em></p>
<p><strong>Visualization</strong></p>
<p><em><strong>The initial step in Osteen’s program is visualization:</strong></em> “The first step to living at your full potential is to enlarge your vision.  To live your best life now, you must start looking at life through eyes of faith, seeing yourself rising to new levels.  See your business taking off.  See your marriage restored.  See your family prospering.  See your dreams coming to pass.  You must conceive it and believe it is possible if you ever hope to experience it” (p. 4, emphasis his).</p>
<p>The reason why visualization is necessary is because it has the power to bring about what you envision. “You will produce what you’re continually seeing in your mind… If you develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness, nothing on earth will be able to hold those things from you… Start anticipating promotions and supernatural increase.  You must conceive it in your heart and mind before you can receive it… You must make room for increase in your own thinking, and then God will bring those things to pass” (pp. 5-6).</p>
<p>Apparently even God is at the mercy of that which we visualize; after all, “Thoughts [not God] determine destiny” (p. 101).  “If you don’t think your body can be healed, it never will be… When you think positive, excellent thoughts, you will be propelled toward greatness, inevitably bound for increase, promotion, and God’s supernatural blessings” (p. 104).</p>
<p><strong>Faith</strong></p>
<p>It is not enough to think about and visualize what we want, we must also express faith. “God works by faith. You must believe first, and then you’ll receive” (p. 33).  “We receive what we believe.  Unfortunately, this principle works as strongly in the negative as it does in the positive” (p. 72).  “Understand this:  God will help you, but <span style="text-decoration:underline;">you</span> cast the deciding vote… [we must] get into agreement with God” (p. 74).  “It’s our faith that activates the power of God” (p. 306).</p>
<p>It is vital that we visualize what we want and to expect (“express faith”) because our faith attracts what we visualize.  While Osteen never calls this the<em> “law of attraction&#8221;</em> notice its similarity to the same concept as taught by New Age teachers such as Eckhart Tolle, Rhonda Byrne and others.  “Your life will follow your expectations.  What you expect is what you will get” (p. 13).  “Our thoughts contain tremendous power.  Remember, we draw into our lives that which we constantly think about.  If we’re always dwelling on the negative, we will attract negative people, experiences, and attitudes.  If we’re always dwelling on our fears, we will draw in more fear.  You are setting the direction of your life with your thoughts” (p. 109).</p>
<p><strong>Words </strong></p>
<p>Still, it is not enough to think good thoughts and express faith in them; it is necessary to speak your desires out loud.  This is why the prosperity gospel is often called the “Word of Faith” movement – for power lies in the spoken word.</p>
<p><strong>Follow Osteen’s thinking.</strong> “Our words have tremendous power, and whether we want to or not, we will give life to what we’re saying, either good or bad… Words are similar to seeds, by speaking them aloud, they are planted in our subconscious minds, and they take on a life of their own” (p. 122).</p>
<p><strong>Osteen suggests</strong>, “Get up each morning and look in the mirror and say, ‘I am valuable.  I am loved.  God has a great plan for my life.  I have favor wherever I go.  God’s blessings are chasing me down and overtaking me.  Everything I touch prospers and succeeds.  I’m excited about my future!’  Start speaking those kinds of words, and before long, you will rise to a new level of well-being, success, and victory.  There truly is power in your words” (p. 123).</p>
<p><strong>But there is more.  We must also speak to our problems</strong>, “Whatever your mountain is, you must do more than think about it, more than pray about it; you must speak to that obstacle… Start calling yourself healed, happy, whole, blessed, and prosperous.  Stop talking to God about how big your mountains are, and start talking to your mountains about how big your God is” (p. 124).</p>
<p><strong>Osteen can confidently promise us</strong>, “Friend, there is a miracle in your mouth” (p. 125).</p>
<p><strong>How so?</strong> “The moment you speak something out, you give birth to it.  This is a spiritual principle, and it works whether what you are saying is good or bad, positive or negative” (p. 129). Therefore,  “You must start boldly confessing God’s Word, using your words to move forward in life, to bring to life the great things God has in store for you” (p. 130).</p>
<p><strong>And it is totally up to us to pull this kind of life off.</strong> “God has already done everything He’s going to do.  The ball is now in your court.  If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do <span style="text-decoration:underline;">more</span> than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family” (p. 132).</p>
<p>Osteen is presenting a pure self-help program and baptizing it in the name of God.  Those who fail to reach these promised benefits have only themselves to blame, since they apparently did not follow Osteen’s formula.</p>
<p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p>
<p>Whenever the supposed things of God and people of God become popular with the inhabitants of this fallen world we would be wise to walk softly and be extra discerning.  The Jews persecuted and/or killed almost every one of their prophets (Acts 7:52); the apostles were despised by the world and Jesus was murdered by those He came to save.  Jesus pronounced a blessing on those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness (Matt 5:11) and warned, <em>“If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you”</em> (John 15:20).</p>
<p>Why?  Because the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (1 Cor 1:18).  Therefore when we find a Christian message or ministry or man or woman being praised by unbelievers we can be assured that either unregenerate humanity has not yet caught on to what is being said, or that what they are saying is in line with what the unbeliever already believes.</p>
<p>As we have demonstrated Osteen’s message is exactly what unbelievers and undiscerning Christians want to believe and they are thrilled to have someone who claims to be a reliable spokesperson for God agree with them.  This would account for Osteen’s incredible success, but it does not account for, or excuse, the inconceivable gullibility and immaturity of professing Christians.</p>
<p><em>[1] Taken from The Secret DVD.</em></p>
<p><em>[2] Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity in Crisis (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1993), p. 74, 75.</em></p>
<p><em>[3] Ibid., p. 80.</em></p>
<p><em>[4] Ibid., pp. 83, 84.</em></p>
<p><em>[5] http://churchrelevance.com/top-100-largest-churches-in-america-of-2008/.  It is worthy of note that according to this source, attendance has dropped by 3,500 people from the previous year; a virtual megachurch in its own right.</em></p>
<p><em>[6] Joel Osteen, Your Best Life Now ( New York: Faith Word, 2004), p. 212.</em></p>
<p><em>[7] Quotes and page numbers throughout the rest of this book are taken from Osteen, Your Best Life Now.</em></p>
<p><strong>Source</strong>, <a href="http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/22-contemporary-issues/620-joel-osteen-and-the-prosperity-gospel">Southern View Chapel, Joel Osteen and The Prosperity Gospel, by Gary Gilley</a></p>
<p><img style="border:medium none;position:absolute;z-index:2147483647;opacity:0.6;display:none;" src="image/png;base64,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%3D" alt="" width="24" height="24" /></p>
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<title><![CDATA[Scuse me, Mr. Magoo, could you tell me if my socks match?]]></title>
<link>http://maxdaddy.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/scuse-me-mr-magoo-could-you-tell-me-if-my-socks-match/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>maxdaddy</dc:creator>
<guid>http://maxdaddy.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/scuse-me-mr-magoo-could-you-tell-me-if-my-socks-match/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[I was made aware of this atrocity by my friend, Erin. It is an example of how some people don&#8217;]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[I was made aware of this atrocity by my friend, Erin. It is an example of how some people don&#8217;]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[Media Friday: Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christian]]></title>
<link>http://deadguyblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/media-friday-joel-osteen-says-mormons-are-christian/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Dead Guy Blog</dc:creator>
<guid>http://deadguyblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/media-friday-joel-osteen-says-mormons-are-christian/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[more about &#8220;Media Friday:Joel Osteen says Mormons&#8230;&#8220;, posted with vodpod &nbsp;]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><span style="width:425px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><embed src='http://widgets.vodpod.com/w/video_embed/Groupvideo.3911138' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' AllowScriptAccess='always' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer' wmode='transparent' flashvars='' /></p>
<div style="font-size:10px;">more about &#8220;<a href="http://vodpod.com/watch/532723-osteen-okays-mormonism?pod=bryanniland">Media Friday:Joel Osteen says Mormons&#8230;</a>&#8220;, posted with <a href="http://vodpod.com?r=wp">vodpod</a></div>
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<title><![CDATA[MSNBC Promotes Crackpot Theory that Christianty Caused Economic Crash]]></title>
<link>http://newsrealblog.com/2009/11/13/its-kick-the-christians-when-theyre-down-time-at-msnbc/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Michael van der Galien</dc:creator>
<guid>http://newsrealblog.com/2009/11/13/its-kick-the-christians-when-theyre-down-time-at-msnbc/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[How much does one have to hate Christianity in order to blame this guy for the economic meltdown? In]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 258px"><img src="http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/osteen.jpg?w=248&#038;h=186" alt="" width="248" height="186" /><p class="wp-caption-text">How much does one have to hate Christianity in order to blame this guy for the economic meltdown?</p></div>
<p>In what is either a curious coincidence or a planned attack, <a href="http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/NBC%20News%20President%20Capus%20Olbermann.html" target="_blank">MSNBC</a>&#8217;s &#8220;Morning Joe&#8221; spent two entire segments ridiculing Christians. Does one wonder why the leftist network categorically refuses to do the same with fundamentalist Muslims?</p>
<p>First, MSNBC host Willie Geist went <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789#33882154" target="_blank">after Governor Sarah Palin and Carrie Prejean</a>. Especially the latter was singled out because of her outspoken religious views. For example, at the very moment Geist mentioned the word &#8220;Christianity,&#8221; his producers immediately showed a video of Prejean walking around in a bikini during a pageant. The message they tried to sent was clear: &#8220;she says she&#8217;s a Christian but she walks around like a slut. The hypocrite.&#8221;<!--more--></p>
<p>Apparently unsure of whether the anti-Christianity agenda of his network was obvious enough to the viewer, he proceeded to selectively quote from an interview Prejean did with &#8220;Christianity Today&#8221; Magazine. The magazine asked her about breast implants and Christianity. While Prejean&#8217;s answer (&#8220;I don&#8217;t see anywhere in the Bible where it says you shouldn&#8217;t get breast implants&#8221;) was obviously stupid, it is rather noteworthy that Geist has yet to respond sarcastically (&#8220;that&#8217;s right Carrie, you show <em>me</em> where it says you can&#8217;t get breast implants!&#8221;) to silly remarks made by adherents to other religions.</p>
<p>Next, &#8220;Morning Joe&#8221; hosts Mika Brzezinski and Joe Scarborough <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789#33882154" target="_blank">tried to discredit famous preachers like Joel Osteen</a>. They invited Hanna Rosin, editor of the leftist <em>The Atlantic</em> on the show to talk about her latest article called &#8220;Did Christianity Cause the Crash?&#8221; Yes, really &#8211; that <em>is</em> the name of the article.</p>
<p>Scarborough called it &#8220;provocative,&#8221; which is a tremendous understatement, considering the fact that she calls Osteen&#8217;s brand of Christianity, a theology &#8220;of death&#8221; and worse. Not greedy bankers, or government interference, or other causes, or a mixture of them, are responsible for the economic crisis. No, Joel Osteen is, says Rosin. Add to that that Osteen&#8217;s brand of Christianity smeared is as &#8220;Prosperity Gospel&#8221; on the &#8220;Morning Joe&#8221; website, and it should be clear to all that <a href="http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/MSNBC%20The%20National%20Barack%20Cable.html" target="_blank">MSNBC&#8217;s anti-Christian agenda</a> continues unabated.</p>
<p>While there is nothing wrong with satire as such, MSNBC&#8217;s double standard is both startling and infuriating. If  you criticize individuals for being religious, don&#8217;t discriminate between different religions. Why is it that &#8220;Morning Joe&#8221; doesn&#8217;t spend any time and attention to the problem that exists with Muslim fundamentalists, for instance? These individuals do everything they can to spread their ideology of hatred in the West. It is this ideology &#8211; Islamo-Fascism or Islamic Extremism &#8211; that is responsible for both 9/11 and the recent attack on Fort Hood. It has made many more victims than Osteen&#8217;s &#8220;prosperity gospel.&#8221; It&#8217;s worth pointing that out, if you&#8217;re a news channel, wouldn&#8217;t you say?</p>
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<title><![CDATA[Heaven and Prosperity]]></title>
<link>http://rylanreed.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/heaven-and-prosperity/</link>
<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>rylanreed</dc:creator>
<guid>http://rylanreed.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/heaven-and-prosperity/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Thought theses were good, something else to ponder about the whole thing:]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>Thought theses were good, something else to ponder about the whole thing:</p>
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