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	<title>pre-existence &amp;laquo; WordPress.com Tag Feed</title>
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<title><![CDATA[I Will Find You]]></title>
<link>http://divinerendezvous.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/i-will-find-you-2/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>editor</dc:creator>
<guid>http://divinerendezvous.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/i-will-find-you-2/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Shared by Leury Leonardo The story is told of a young missionary: He was serving his mission in Germ]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[Shared by Leury Leonardo The story is told of a young missionary: He was serving his mission in Germ]]></content:encoded>
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<item>
<title><![CDATA[I Will Find You]]></title>
<link>http://divinerendezvous.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/i-will-find-you/</link>
<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>editor</dc:creator>
<guid>http://divinerendezvous.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/i-will-find-you/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[&nbsp; Shared by Leury Leonardo The story is told of a young missionary: He was serving his mission ]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[&nbsp; Shared by Leury Leonardo The story is told of a young missionary: He was serving his mission ]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[POEM OF THE DAY:  Pre-Existence]]></title>
<link>http://wepoplaski.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/poem-of-the-day-pre-existence/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>wepoplaski</dc:creator>
<guid>http://wepoplaski.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/poem-of-the-day-pre-existence/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[by Dora Sigerson Shorter (1866 – 1918). Pre-Existence (1893) We have met, you and I long ago, Yester]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>by Dora Sigerson Shorter (1866 – 1918).</p>
<p>Pre-Existence (1893)</p>
<p>We have met, you and I long ago,<br />
Yesterday when I saw you I knew,<br />
For the sight of the city was gone,<br />
And the sky took an eastern blue,<br />
Strange flowers and strange perfumes were there,<br />
Strange birds without song flitted by,<br />
O I loved you as woman ne’er loved<br />
When we met long ago, you and I.<br />
 <br />
We have loved long ago, you and I,<br />
Though to-day we but linger to part.<br />
O say, do you wish to forget?<br />
Does no answer awake in your heart?<br />
Perhaps in the future ’tis writ<br />
That we meet once again.  Ah, good-bye!<br />
You forget, but I sigh for that past<br />
Where we met and we loved, you and I.</p>
<p>Notes:<br />
<a href="http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/s/Shorter,DS/life.htm">http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/s/Shorter,DS/life.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/dora-sigerson-shorter">http://www.answers.com/topic/dora-sigerson-shorter</a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[In the Beginning (Part 1): Pre-existence or <i>Creatio Ex Nihilo?</i>]]></title>
<link>http://ilovemormons.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/in-the-beginning-part-1-pre-existence-or-creatio-ex-nihilo/</link>
<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 01:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
<guid>http://ilovemormons.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/in-the-beginning-part-1-pre-existence-or-creatio-ex-nihilo/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[In my opinion, one of the most significant differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianit]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[In my opinion, one of the most significant differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianit]]></content:encoded>
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<title><![CDATA[What the Demons Think About Jesus (the "I have come" sayings of Jesus #2)]]></title>
<link>http://electexiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/what-the-demons-think-about-jesus-the-i-have-come-sayings-of-jesus-2/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
<guid>http://electexiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/what-the-demons-think-about-jesus-the-i-have-come-sayings-of-jesus-2/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Mark 1:24 &#8220;What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><strong>Mark 1:24</strong> &#8220;What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are- the Holy One of God.&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>Matthew 8:29</strong> And behold, they cried out, &#8220;What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?&#8221;</p>
<p>The two above verses are responses of demons to Jesus during his public ministry&#8211;in which he often cast out demons.  In Mark 1, there is just one demon possessed man and one demon making this interesting statement.  In Matthew, there were 2 demon possessed men possessed by many demons that apparently made these men strong and violent.  In both of these instances&#8211;the demons seem to know something about <em>who Jesus is</em> and <em>where He has come from.<br />
</em></p>
<p>In my previous post, <a href="http://electexiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/jesus-what-are-you-doing-here/"><em>Jesus . . . what are you doing here?</em></a> I discussed the fact that the only precident in the Old Testament that we have of someone saying &#8220;I have come&#8221; + a statement of purpose comes from angels (Daniel 9:22-23, 10:11-14; Numbers 22:32).  So when Jesus uses this formula a number of times in the gospels&#8211;he is communicating that he has come from the heavenly sphere to earth for particular purposes&#8211;all of which have far reaching eternal implications (i.e. &#8220;to cast fire on the earth&#8221; or &#8220;to seek and save the lost&#8221;).</p>
<p>In these two verses&#8211;the demons use a very similar formula to Jesus&#8217; &#8220;I have come&#8221; statements.  They ask Jesus, &#8220;<em>have you come</em> . . . to destroy us/torment us before the appointed time?&#8221;  Thus it appears that these demons know that Jesus has come to earth from heaven.  They also seem to know something of who He is&#8211;&#8221;the Holy One of God&#8221; and &#8220;the Son of God&#8221; respectively.  &#8220;Holy One of God&#8221; is a title never used to describe prophetic figures or angels, rather it is used of the LORD (Jeremiah 50:29; Isaiah 30:11).  Thus &#8220;Holy One of God&#8221; highlights Jesus&#8217; God-nature&#8211;for who is holy but God alone (1 Sam. 2:2).</p>
<p>In both instances, the demons fear Jesus.  In Mark 1:24, there is one demon asking Jesus, &#8220;have you come to destroy <em>us</em>?&#8221;  Why does this demon switch to the plural if he is only one demon?  This demon knows enough of who Jesus is as &#8220;the Holy One of God&#8221; to know that He has the power to destroy the entire demonic order&#8211;he seems to know that Jesus could destroy all demons (Gen. 3:15)!  In Mark 8:29, these demons know of a future appointed time when the demons would face torment (Jude 1:6; Rev. 20:6-10; 1 John 3:8)&#8211;they also understand Jesus to be the source of that torment&#8211;the understand Him to be the great eschatological judge (Rev. 19:15)!</p>
<p>Jesus cast out demons becuase he came &#8220;to seek and save the lost&#8221; and to reclaim the world from its false ruler!  In casting out demons he shows that He is the messiah promised in Gen. 3:15 come to crush the head of serpent.  Furthermore in going to the cross He would &#8220;disarm&#8221; the entire demonic order (Col. 2:15) making them powerless over the children of His kingdom. Though this world has fallen, Jesus came to redeem it and defeat its false rulers!  Indeed Jesus came to show His love for sinners by dieing on the cross for them but more than that, He established His kingdom in the hearts of believers by paying the penalty for all who would believe.  In trusting in Him, we become a part of this new kingdom and will reign with Him for ever!</p>
<p>What the demons say about Jesus ought to cause us to check our own hearts because apparently you can know a great deal about Jesus and still hate Him.  <em>To know who Jesus is and hate Him is demonic</em>.  If you know who Jesus is and have put your trust in Him, you will love Him and work to spread His kingdom!</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, Jesus lets the demons in Matthew 8:28 go into a herd of pigs&#8211;this results in a mass suicide of pigs as they run off a cliff.  The pig herders then go and gather a mob together to run Jesus out of town!  Why did Jesus allow these demons to go into the herd of pigs?  We could make a number of logical guesses&#8211;Jesus is Lord of creation and can do whatever He wants with the pigs and with the demons.  But perhaps, Jesus, as He so often does, wanted to reveal the true hearts of these pig herders and towns people.  The pig herders apparently loved financial gain/worldly possessions more than the work of God&#8211;they witnessed a profound miracle in which Jesus shows his power over evil and yet they want Him gone.  Jesus freed these men from demonic oppression and in so doing opens the doors wide for entrance into the Kingdom of God, and the pig herders want nothing to do with Him because they lost their pigs.  Following Jesus is costly, and if you love money or anything else more than Him, you have no place in His Kingdom.</p>
<p>Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  If you do, you will love His work?  Is the advance of His Kingdom your fervent desire?  Its not enough to know who Jesus is&#8211;even the demons know that and shudder (James 2:19)&#8211;you must love and promote His Kingdom and His kingdom works.</p>
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<title><![CDATA[Pre-existence in Mormonism and Platonism]]></title>
<link>http://seanhyland.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/pre-existence-in-mormonism-and-platonism/</link>
<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>seanhyland</dc:creator>
<guid>http://seanhyland.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/pre-existence-in-mormonism-and-platonism/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ The first point of similarity between LDS belief and Platonism which we shall look at is the doctri]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p> The first point of similarity between LDS belief and Platonism which we shall look at is the doctrine of pre-existence of the soul. We shall be refuting the ideas by Mormon apologist Barry Bickmore in his book entitled &#8220;Restoring the Ancient Church&#8221; (FAIR, 1999) in these articles.</p>
<p>There is no Biblical or Patristic support for the notion of pre-existence. A typical Mormon argument is to quote early Fathers who show that the body and soul were not created together; for example Justin Martyr in <em>1st Apology</em> 10 and in <em>Dialogue with Trypho </em>5, also <em>Mathetes to Diognetus</em> 5-6, all of which are cited by Bickmore<em> op. cit. </em>p. 143. Needless to say none of these quotes have anything to do with pre-existence, they merely say the body and soul are created separately.</p>
<p>So what did Plato teach regarding pre-existence of the soul? <strong></strong>From the Catholic Encyclopedia article : <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10234d.htm">Metempsychosis </a>we read:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Plato&#8217;s metempsychosis was learnt from the Pythagoreans. He gave the doctrine a philosophic standing such as it never before possessed; for <strong>Plato exhibits the most elaborate attempt in the history of philosophy to find in the facts of actual experience justification for the theory of the pre-existence of the soul.&#8221; </strong></p></blockquote>
<p>The key to understanding Plato is his theory of <strong>Forms </strong>or <strong>Ideas.</strong> It is a little bit tricky to understand, but well worth the effort. Here we go.</p>
<p><strong>The Theory of Forms:</strong></p>
<p>Plato distinguished between the world of sense and the world of universal ideas. The world we live in (the <strong>world of sense</strong>) is one of <strong>becoming</strong>; everything in this world &#8220;comes to be and passes away, but <strong>never really is</strong>&#8221; (<em>Timaeus</em> 28a). He said that there existed another &#8220;world&#8221; where pure essences existed. This was the world <strong>of being; </strong>everything in this world is &#8220;eternal and unchanging&#8221;(<em>Timaeus</em> 28a). The pure essences (also known as <strong>Forms</strong> or <strong>Ideas</strong>), according to his work the <em>Phaedo</em>, are (from the website http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/phaedo.htm ) unchangeable (78c10-d9), eternal (79d2), intelligible, though not perceptible (79a1-5), divine (80a3, b1), incorporeal , causes of being (100c).</p>
<p>Some more insight is provided by the Radical Academy’s article <a href="http://radicalacademy.com/adiphilcritideas.htm#plato">Plato&#8217;s Ultra-Realism </a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Plato (427-347 B.C.E.) was aware that the <strong>world of sense </strong>and sense objects is in a state of continuous change. From the fact of continuous change he concluded that there is nothing real and stable in the sense world. The <strong>universal ideas</strong>, however, have a content which is stable, real, unchangeable, eternal; the knowledge acquired through universal ideas is truly &#8220;science&#8221;&#8230;<br />
Hence, the existence of universal ideas in the human minds demands the existence of a supra-mundane world of <strong>pure essences,</strong> which are stable, real, unchangeable, and eternal and of which the universal ideas of man are a true representation. <strong>These pure essences Plato called Ideas</strong>.<br />
The Ideas alone have reality in the strict sense; they exist as real entities (noumena) apart from the world of sense (phenomena). The objects of the sense world are but faint, changing replicas or imitations of the eternal, unchanging Ideas; the Ideas are the eternal prototypes or exemplars of the objects of the sense world.&#8221; (emphasis mine)</p></blockquote>
<p><strong></strong></p>
<h3>So, what does all this mean in regard to the Mormon doctrine of pre-existence?</h3>
<p>Plato worked from his theory of Forms that, since universal ideas that men have cant be derived form the world of sense, then man must have got them elsewhere, namely, in a pre-existent state in this world of Forms! So the Theory of Forms led to the Platonic belief in pre-existence of the spirit.</p>
<p><strong>The bottom line I want to get across is, the idea of pre-existence is a purely Platonic idea, based on his theory of Forms. The Mormon doctrine of pre-existence has is virtually identical to Platonic thought, as we shall now see.</strong><br />
<strong></strong>The teaching of Mormonism regarding this doctrine can be found in the Book of Abraham. In chapter 3, Abraham sees a vision of the intelligences in their pre-existent state:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was made; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; and God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born&#8221; (Abraham 3:22-23).</p></blockquote>
<p>As we shall see in the next paper, on creation &#60;&#62;ex nihilo, Joseph Smith also shares a lot of his teachings with the Atomists, such as Democritus and Epicurus, of ancient Greece. The Atomists believed in the indestructibility and eternity of atoms and that there are an infinite number of worlds (See the page on cosmology). They also, most importantly to the present subject, believed that the soul is composed of atoms. <strong>Hence, according to the Atomists, the soul is eternal and so must have existed in a pre-existent state.</strong> The Atomist influence is just another area of Greek philosophical influence on LDS doctrine, which I mention in passing.</p>
<p>So, to give a quick summary of the above. The LDS <em>Book of Abraham</em> teaches the doctrine of pre-existence of the soul (in addition to other Greek doctrines). Platonism teaches pre-existence through its theory of &#8220;Forms&#8221; or &#8220;Ideas&#8221;. Similarly, the Atomists of ancient Greece taught the eternity of atoms and the atomic composition of the soul, doctrines also taught bey the LDS religion. So we see that the Mormon religion, in regard to the doctrine of pre-existence, bases itself squarely on the teachings of Plato and other Greek philosophers.</p>
<p>Next we shall show that the doctrine of pre-existence was utterly rejected by the Early Church Fathers, as well as being refuted by Sacred Scripture itself. We shall show this, in part by refuting the efforts of Mormon apologists to garner support for their doctrine in the writings of the Fathers.<br />
<strong></strong></p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Origen, <em>De Principiis 2:8:3 </em></strong><br />
“We may perhaps hazard a guess” that the soul had a pre-mortal fall. (in Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers, page 207).</p>
<p>Note that when Origen talks about pre-existence, he is referring to angels, not to the souls of humans!!! Because Mormons are caught up in this idea of “eternal progression” they can’t seem to distinguish the two. The Clementien Recognitions 2:60 in ANF 8:114 specifically rejected the idea of a pre-cosmic fall.</p>
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Origen, <em>Commentary on John 2:25 </em>in ANF 10:340 </strong>Here Origen speculates that John the Baptist may have been an angel before his mortal birth. Even if this were the case (and there is no reason to believe it), it does not mean that the <strong>soul of man </strong>is created before his conception. Here is the quote: &#8220;we ask if it can be one of the holy angels who is sent down on this ministry as forerunner of our Saviour.&#8221;
<p>In any case the word angel here many not even refer to the spirit being.</p>
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Clement of Alexandria </strong>(Origen’s teacher) in commenting on <em>Jeremiah 1:5</em> wrote (<strong>The Instructor 1:7 </strong>in ANF 2:224):<br />
<blockquote><p>&#8220;But the Lord hath also said in Jeremiah: &#8216;Say not that I am a youth: before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before I brought the out of the womb I sanctified thee.&#8217; Such allusions prophecy can make to us, destined in the eye of God to faith before the foundation of the world; but now babes, through the recent fulfillment of the will of God, according to which we are born now to calling and salvation.”</p></blockquote>
<p>To say this has anything to do with pre-existence is of course unfounded speculation, as it refers to God’s foreknowledge. Romans 4:17 also very good. Jeremiah 1: 5 does not refer to pre-existence, but to God’s foreknowledge. Clement of Alexandria’s comment in “The Instructor 1:7 is likewise concerned with God’s foreknowledge, not with pre-existence.</p>
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Clement of Rome</strong> (<em>Clememtine Recognitions 1:1 </em>in ANF 8:77): &#8220;whether I did not exist <strong>before I was born,</strong> and whether there shall be no remembrance of this life after death..&#8221;This verse does not even address pre-existence. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the pre-existence of the soul.
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Justin Martyr </strong>says in <em>Dialogue with Trypho 5 </em>(ANF 1:197) &#8220;If the world is begotten, souls also are necessarily begotten; and perhaps at one time they were not in existence, for they were made on account of men and other living creatures, if you will say they have been begotten wholly apart, and not along with their respective bodies.&#8221;This says nothing about when the soul was created, just that it is created apart from the body.
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus 5-6 </strong>(&#8220;The Early Christians afte the Death of the Apostles&#8221;, by Arnold) &#8220;the soul lives in the body, yet does not have its origin in the body&#8221;.This verse, too, is used by despairing Mormons to make the case of pre-existence. Of course, all this verse shows is that the soul is not created <strong>in</strong> the body. It says nothing about the soul being created <strong>before </strong>the body, which is what Mormons would like it to say. Too bad for them.
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Another tack: making <em>Christ’s</em> pre-existence = the <em>individual soul’s </em>pre-existence:</strong>The 2nd century <em>Clementine Recognitions, </em>allegedly preached &#8220;the doctrine of the pre-existence of souls.&#8221;
<p>This is nothing more than a footnote to Clementine Recognitions 1:28 in Roberts and Donaldsons The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975,) p. 85.</p>
<p>The pre-existence of Christ can of course be accepted. This does not mean the pre-existence of each individual soul, though.</p>
<p> </li>
<li><strong>Yet another try: making <em>Christ’s</em> existence from the beginning = the <em>individual soul’s </em>pre-existence:</strong>For example, the second century <em>Pastor of Hermas , Vis. 2:33</em> &#8220;She [the Church] was the first of all creation&#8230; and the world was made for her.&#8221;
<p>This says merely that the Church existed from the beginning of creation, not that it has existed in pre-existence from all eternity. The Church had a beginning in time, just like all of creation. In using this argument, Mormons confuse the event of creation with pre-exsitence from eternity. Of course the latter is totally without support.</p>
<p> </li>
<li><strong>2 Clement</strong>, another document from about the middle of the second century, reads (2 Clement 14:2) &#8220;Moreover, the books and the apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.&#8221;Again, this is an irrelevant quote which says nothing about pre-existence of soul.</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Some further comments by Mormon apologists</strong></p>
<p>Mormons say (Bickmore, op. cit.. p 146) that “The New Testament Writers often referred obliquely to the pre-existence, assuming the readers knew about it,but never teaching it in full detail.”</p>
<p>This is essentially an admission <em>there was no doctrine of pre-existence</em> in New Testament times!</p>
<p>In the end, Bickmore (p. 147) has to say the Church <strong>“may have decided to reject the idea of pre-existence in reaction to its acceptance by the heretical Gnostic schools”.</strong></p>
<p><em>So in other words, the Catholic Church rejects the Platonic doctrine of pre-existence (which the LDS, strangely enough accepts! ) but still Mormons claims the Catholic Church went wrong because it embraced Platonic ideas! </em></p>
<p>That, dear reader, is the sum total of what Mormons can come up with in defense of their doctrine of pre-existence. Pretty meagre, isn’t it?</p>
<p>On page 102 of his book ,Bickmore comes up with an equally contradictory view re creaiton ex nihilo, which I will mention in the next paper.<br />
<strong></strong>A typical quote follows from <strong>St. Gregory Nazianzus,</strong> <em>Oration 37:15</em></p>
<blockquote><p>”I fear lest some monstrous reasoning may come in, as of the soul having lived elsewhere, and then having been bound to this body, and that it is from that other life that some receive the gift of prophecy, and others are condemned, namely, those who lived badly. But since such a conception is too absurd, and contrary to the traditions of the Church (others if they like may play with such doctrines, but it is unsafe for us to play with them); we must in this place too add to the words &#8220;To whom it hath been given,&#8221; this, &#8220;who are worthy;&#8221; who have not only received this character from the Father, but have given it to themselves.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Other verses to look up: St. Gregory of Nyssa, De anima et resurr.Par. 15,3; St. Augustine Ep. 217, 5, 16; Leo I, Ep. 15:10.<br />
In no instance is it taught that man had a spirit pre-existence before coming to this world.</p>
<p>In addition, the Origenic doctrine of rebirth was refuted in 553 AD not that this is really relevant. Origen was the only one who said anything about it, and that in reference to angels.</p>
<p><strong>Summary: </strong>The doctrine of Pre-existence is Platonic through and through. Attempts by Mormons to show it was an early Christian teaching fall flat on their face, for nowhere is the doctrine taught in either Scripture or in the writings of the Fathers. The most they can come up with is wild speculation, which we have addressed here.</p>
<p>So we are left with the question: who was influenced by Plato, the Church or the Mormons? The Mormons of course.</p>
<p><strong>Appendix: Analysis of Jeremiah 23:18 and Job 15:8</strong></p>
<p>Mormon claim: Jeremiah 23:18 and Job 15:8 both speak of the pre-mortal council (that is a council involving the gods and the pre-existent spirits of men). Job 15:8 “Hast thou heard the <strong>secret</strong> [5475] of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?” Jeremiah 23:18 “For who hath stood in the <strong>counsel </strong>[5475] of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?” Strong’s Concordanece of Hebrew words lists the word in this verse for &#8220;counsel&#8221; as 5475 <strong>cowd </strong>a session, i.e. a company of persons in close deliberation; by implication intimacy, consultation,a secret:- assembly, counsel, inward , secret (counsel). The verse Jer 23:18 means of course no one has stood in God’s council!. So much for this pre-mortal council.</p>
<p>But does <strong>cowd </strong>[5475] realy mean a pre-mortal council? Let’s look at other verses which use this word : <strong>Genesis 49:6<br />
Job 29:4<br />
Psalm 64:2<br />
Proverbs 25:9<br />
Amos 3:7<br />
Proverbs 11:13; 20:19<br />
Jeremiah 23:22 </strong></p>
<p>In <strong>none </strong>of these instances is a pre-mortal council referred to, and most certainly do none of them refer to pre-existent souls of men in attendance at such a council.<br />
The other verses which use this word can also be inspected.</p>
<p>Note re. St. Augustine and Platonic Forms. From Ott, page 43-44 we read:</p>
<blockquote><p>”Among the Fathers, St. Augustine particularly developed the doctrine of the Divine Ideas, in association indeed with the Platonic doctrine of ideas, which he christianised. He posited as existing in the Divine Mind the ideas conceived by Plato as hypostases eternally existing parallel with God, and by explaining these as Divine Thoughts eternally identical with the Divine Essence, in which God is cognisant of His infinite imitability through finite, created things. He regards the Divine Ideas as the origin of things. De Trin. XY 13,22: “All His creatures, the spirits and the corporeal He does not know because they are, but they are because He knows them. That is, nothing which He would create was unknown to Him. Because He knew, He created; He did not know because He created.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Note St. Augustine conceives the Divine Ideas as God’s foreknowledge of His creation, not as anything to do with pre-existence. See also Romans 4:17.</p>
<p><span style="font-size:x-small;">(As a sidenote, Plato argued that when our supposedly pre-existent spirit acquired a body, the knowledge of these Forms went into a subconcious state of a kind, hence they were not known at birth, but recognized or <strong>remembered </strong>later, when the earthly complement of a Form was seen, such as a tree would awaken the Form of a tree form the pre-existent state. Such was Plato’s defense of his theory, which is also known as the <strong>theory of reminiscence.</strong>)</span></p>
<p>Next: Denial of Creation ex nihilo</p>
<h3>Part 4: The Early Church Fathers oppose Pre-existence</h3>
<h3>Part 3: Refutation of Mormon interpertations</h3>
<h3>Part 2. Pre-existence of soul: What did Joseph Smith say?</h3>
<p> </p>
<h3>Part 1. Pre-existence of soul: what did Plato teach?</h3>
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<title><![CDATA[Iz Nawt Nepotizm!!!]]></title>
<link>http://bloggernacleburner.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/iz-nawt-nepotizm/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>bloggernacleburner</dc:creator>
<guid>http://bloggernacleburner.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/iz-nawt-nepotizm/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[He getz hiz rightious frum teh pre-existenz!]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 510px"><a href="http://mormonmission.blogspot.com/2008/12/blood-is-thicker-than-water.html"><img src="http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/12/4/128728986830845239.jpg" alt="He getz hiz rightious frum teh pre-existenz!" width="500" height="334" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">He getz hiz rightious frum teh pre-existenz!</p></div>
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<title><![CDATA[Where did we come from?]]></title>
<link>http://jcseidel.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/where-did-we-come-from/</link>
<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>jcseidel</dc:creator>
<guid>http://jcseidel.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/where-did-we-come-from/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[I find it interesting that only one Christian denomination teaches that we lived with our Heavenly F]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p>I find it interesting that only one Christian denomination teaches that we lived with our Heavenly Father before we came to earth.  I would guess that if you talk to most people they would say that they believe they existed before coming to earth.  It is an interesting inconsistency or paradox that most people believe this yet it is not taught by any churches except one. It is a theme found in great literature such as Milton&#8217;s Paradise Lost, Maeterlinck&#8217;s The Bluebird, and Wordsworth&#8217;s Ode on Intimations on Immortality.</p>
<p>Wordsworth penned:</p>
<blockquote class="center">
<ul class="nobullets">
<li>Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:</li>
<li>The Soul that rises with us, our life&#8217;s Star,</li>
<li>Hath had elsewhere its setting,</li>
<li>And cometh from afar:</li>
<li>Not in entire forgetfulness,</li>
<li>And not in utter nakedness,</li>
<li>But trailing clouds of glory do we come</li>
<li>From God, who is our home</li>
</ul>
<p>There is of course much to discuss and little time for me to write</p>
<p>For further discussion see:http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/you-lived-with-god</p></blockquote>
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<title><![CDATA[We Lived in Heaven: Sarah Hinze on Pre-Birth Experiences]]></title>
<link>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/08/07/we-lived-in-heaven-sarah-hinze-on-pre-birth-experiences/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>David Larsen</dc:creator>
<guid>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/08/07/we-lived-in-heaven-sarah-hinze-on-pre-birth-experiences/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Sarah Hinze For those who read my previous post on Roy Mills&#8217; book about his memories of the p]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div id="attachment_224" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 205px"><a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/sarahhinze.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-224 " src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/sarahhinze.jpg" alt="Sarah Hinze" width="195" height="252" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Sarah Hinze</p></div>
<p>For those who read my <a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/remembering-the-pre-existence/" target="_blank">previous post </a>on Roy Mills&#8217; book about his memories of the premortal life, this post will be an exciting follow-up, with further information on individuals who have had distinct experiences with the premortal existence. After my father, whose name is also David Larsen, read the Mills post, he referred me to an individual he knows from IANDS (International Association for Near Death Studies) who specializes in &#8220;pre-birth experiences.&#8221; Her name is <strong>Sarah Hinze</strong> and she has done extensive research and writing on this phenomenon, <strong>focusing on collecting experiences from individuals who claim to have received communication from a child before he/she was born, or even before the child was even conceived.  Such experiences indicate that the child already exists in spirit long before his/her birth into the world, and that the &#8220;self&#8221; not only continues after this life, but also precedes it.</strong> In this post, I would like to give a brief overview of Sarah Hinze&#8217;s work.</p>
<p>Sarah&#8217;s research in this area began nearly twenty years ago, after she had a &#8220;pre-birth experience&#8221; (PBE) in the form of a communication from a child that she miscarried. Since then she has interviewed individuals and chronicled many of these types of communication from children before they are born. <strong>Her work has provided solid evidence that unborn children can warn, protect and enlighten us from the spirit realm. Most often these children appear to announce it is their time to be born. This communication can occur between the child and a parent, sibling, aunt, uncle, or grandparent, etc., as they come to warn, protect and enlighten through the veil.</strong></p>
<p>According to Sarah&#8217;s website, <a href="http://www.sarahhinze.com">www.sarahhinze.com</a> or <a href="http://www.royalchild.com">www.royalchild.com</a>, there are several diverse ways in which such a communication can be received.</p>
<ul>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>During a Near Death Experience (NDE</strong>): there are many accounts of NDEs which describe a visit to the premortal realm where future children are contacted. </div>
</li>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Very vivid dreams:</strong> in which the individual sees and/or converses with a being that the individual knows has not yet been born but will be born in the future. Some cultures call this type of experience &#8220;announcing dreams&#8221;. These dreams are often extremely vivid and memorable.</div>
</li>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><span style="color:#000000;"><strong>Visions</strong></span>: PBEr sees distinctly male or female form, various &#8220;ages&#8221;, variously attired, while awake; sometimes form is accompanied by glow or light, sometimes <span style="color:#333333;">not</span>; sometimes appears and/or disappears suddenly.</div>
</li>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Auditory</strong>: Experiencer hears a voiced message from or about the preborn. Often the voice is a child, gives its preferred name, announces that it needs to come to earth now, and/or refers to the parent as &#8220;father&#8221; or &#8220;mother&#8221;.</div>
</li>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Telepathy</strong>: Preborn beings witnessed by communication directly to the experiencer&#8217;s mind; telepathic or spiritual communication, as often described in NDEs.</div>
</li>
<li>
<div style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Sensory</strong>: An individual vividly senses an unseen presence hovering around them. Along with the presence can be a distinct feeling of urgency.</div>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Other pre-birth accounts include: <strong>an individual being able to remember an escort who brought him/her to earth, individuals having flashbacks or being able to remember themselves or siblings in a prebirth/premortal state, children who will be adopted appearing to either the adoptive or biological parents to announce the situation that will take place</strong>, and other types of experiences.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rwrinnovations.com/_images/my_child_boy.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-229" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/jesusmy_child_boy.jpg" alt="" width="470" height="363" /></a></p>
<p>The website also describes <strong>ten general aspects of the &#8220;typical&#8221; prebirth experience</strong>:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Radiation of love</strong>: The preborn radiates a powerful love to the prebirth experiencer, similar to the love felt from the light in the NDE.</li>
<li><strong>Celestial light</strong>: The preborn may radiate, or appear in, a brilliant light that does not hurt the eyes and conveys extraordinary peace, similar to the light in the NDE.</li>
<li><strong>Thankful and eager to come to earth</strong>: The preborn is excited about earth life, views it as a growth opportunity, and is thankful that the parents are providing this opportunity. Yet there may be some fear of the unknown in facing the transition to earth life.</li>
<li><strong>Leaving a heavenly home</strong>: The preborn is eager to enter earth life, but expresses a degree of loss or apprehension at leaving the sanctuary of his heavenly home.</li>
<li><strong>A time to come to earth</strong>: The preborn often indicates that the time in which one comes to earth is assigned, as part of a divine timetable, so personalized growth experiences can be achieved.</li>
<li><strong>A unique mission</strong>: The preborn message conveys that each individual has special purposes or missions to accomplish during his specified time on earth.</li>
<li><strong>Protection/Warning</strong>: Some preborn appearances provide protection or warning to the recipient. (In the case studies reviewed, aid to the PBErs was provided by the preborn to prevent or recover from suicide attempts, abuse, rape, birth control, and abortion that would block the preborn&#8217;s conception and birth on earth.)</li>
<li><strong>Messages</strong>: Some preborn appearances provide messages about something the future parent(s) or others must do as part of their earth mission or to help the preborn.</li>
<li><strong>Escort to earth</strong>: Some preborns are brought to earth by escorts (just as some NDErs are escorted to the life after life).</li>
<li><strong>Deja vu</strong>: Some PBEs consist of memories or flashbacks of one&#8217;s pre-earth life.</li>
</ul>
<p>In another section of the website, &#8220;<a href="http://www.sarahhinze.com/accounts.html" target="_blank">PBE Accounts</a>&#8220;, Sarah provides a few of the many prebirth stories that she has recorded. There are even a couple of accounts from celebrities. Here, for example, is an excerpt from <strong>John Denver&#8217;s</strong> experience when he and his wife were trying to adopt a child:</p>
<blockquote><p> &#8221;Once we started processing the adoption papers, whenever I found a quiet moment in the day, including just before I got out of bed in the morning, I offered a prayer to this little spirit out there: &#8216;Whoever you are, wherever you are, I don&#8217;t know what you have to go through to get here and be with us, but we love you very much and can&#8217;t wait to be with you.&#8217;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;With all of those anticipations streaming through me, we came to New York. I had four sold out nights at Madison Square Garden and we were staying at the Sherry-Netherland. It was May 12, 1974, and <strong>that night I dreamed that three people in white robes came and gave me a little boy</strong>. We hadn&#8217;t specified either sex in our communication with the adoption agency, all we wanted was that the baby be healthy enough to live with us in the mountains. We were active people, we liked to be outside, and we wanted that for our baby as well. <strong>But in my dream, when the baby was put into my arms, I noticed that it was a boy-a dark-faced boy with round eyes and a bit of an overbite-and as I was holding him, he looked up, grabbed my thumb, and smiled</strong>.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;In the morning, I recounted the dream to Annie. Eleven days later, Zak was born. We didn&#8217;t see him then, but we were notified about his birth, and when he was about two months old we went up to Minnesota to the adoption agency to pick him up&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Anyway, we arrived at the agency. Zak was being flown up from the South. There were papers to be signed. There was also a little formal procedure to go through, designed to help adoptive parents deal with the anxiety of meeting their child.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;&#8230;This was where you were supposed to get your first glimpse of your baby. We had just been told that the young woman who was bringing Zak had been delayed and we were trying to keep from feeling disappointed, when the door at the far end of the hall opened and the woman appeared after all, with our child. Without a word, she came running down the hall and handed the baby to me. <strong>He had round eyes and this little bit of an overbite, and when I held him he smiled and grabbed my thumb. Zak was the child in my dream-exactly the same child! I recognized his face and I think he recognized mine</strong>. At least he looked at me in the most knowing way. Right there, dream and reality came together for me.&#8221;</p>
<p>Quoted From <em>Take Me Home: An Autobiography</em> by John Denver &#38; Arthur Tobier, Harmony Books: New York, p.116</p>
<div id="attachment_225" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 372px"><a href="http://www.geocities.com/aspenkate2/jd-zak4.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-225" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/johndenverwzak.jpg" alt="" width="362" height="284" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">John Denver with Zak</p></div></blockquote>
<p>Another such experience was that of <strong>Richard Dreyfuss</strong>. In an interview with Barbara Walters on 20/20 after the Academy Awards in 1996, Dreyfuss revealed that a PBE was key to helping him overcome years of addiction to drugs and alcohol.</p>
<blockquote><p>The interview revealed that Dreyfuss&#8217; first marriage had fallen casualty to his troubled years, as had some great film roles. Over twenty years of addiction recycling had come and gone. The turning point occurred miraculously in a dark hour. Dreyfuss was hospitalized in an effort to detox him yet again from the grasp of drugs and alcohol. Hours passed. As he sobered all alone in the hospital room,<strong> there entered a three-year-old girl in a pink dress and shiny black patent leather shoes. She told him, &#8220;Daddy, I can&#8217;t come to you until you come to me. Please straighten out your life so I can come.&#8221; And she was gone.</strong></p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>But the pleading message of her haunting eyes was seared into Dreyfuss&#8217; memory, a constant inspiration to reorder his life so that his daughter might come. <span style="color:#888888;"><strong><span style="color:#000000;">With this sacred incentive he maintained sobriety, remarried, and prayed. Within three years a daughter was born to Dreyfuss and his wife &#8212; the same girl who had come to his hospital room</span>.</strong></span></p></blockquote>
<p>I share these two stories because of the amazing fact that they are from two famous people who have shared these amazing prebirth experiences publicly. Sarah Hinze provides many more stories on her site.  Besides her website, Sarah has also written a number of books: <em>Life before Life</em>, <em>Songs of the Morning Stars</em>, <em>The Castaways</em>, <em>We Lived in Heaven: Spiritual Accounts of Souls Coming to Earth</em>, and <em>Coming from the Light. </em>More information about these inspiring volumes, including how you can order them, can be found <a href="http://www.sarahhinze.com/books.html" target="_blank">here</a>, <a href="http://www.springcreekbooks.com/authors/hinze_sarah.html" target="_blank">here</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-2509861-1169510?url=search-alias%3Daps&#38;field-keywords=sarah+hinze" target="_blank">here</a>.  I will look at these books in greater detail after I have been able to obtain and review them.</p>
<p><a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/hinzewelivedinheaven.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-226" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/hinzewelivedinheaven.jpg?w=201" alt="" width="201" height="300" /></a>                                            </p>
<p>While I simply can&#8217;t do Sarah Hinze and her extensive research justice in this one post, I would like to conclude with some of the great historical information regarding belief in the premortal existence that she includes on her site, under &#8220;<a href="http://www.sarahhinze.com/history.html" target="_blank">PBEs in History</a>&#8220;:<span style="font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Over 800 references to the pre-earth existence of mankind have been identified in Jewish and Christian sources from the time of Christ until the sixth century, A.D.</strong>   <strong>Early Hellenistic (Greek) writings also referred to belief in a pre-earth life. However, after the sixth century A.D., mention of a life before mortality virtually disappears from orthodox Jewish, Christian, and Greek writings</strong> (Hamerton-Kelley, R.G., <em>Pre-Existence, Wisdom and the Son of Man in the New Testament</em>, Cambridge University Press, 1973).</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>A premortal existence was discussed by such well known ancient philosophers as Plato, and Christian writers Origen of Alexandria and Justin Martyr. The writings of the ancient Jewish historian  Josephus and the Jewish theologian Philo (who claimed that everything he wrote agreed with the Pentateuch) show that belief in a premortal life was evident in Judaism until the 5th century, A.D., which in certain quarters held that the soul longs to return to that premortal existence after earth life</strong> (<em>Judische Theologie</em>, 212-228).</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Until the sixth century A.D., early Christianity taught that we had a pre-earth life</strong>. <strong>Then the doctrine of a pre-existence was condemned by the council of Constantinople in A.D. 553. However, <em>Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics</em> reports the doctrine of a pre-existence was favored by Origen (the greatest of early church theologians), Justin Martyr, Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Peirius, John of Jerusalem, Rufinius, Nemesius, and the Western Church generally until the time of Gregory the</strong> Great (article on pre-existence, p. 239).</p>
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<title><![CDATA[Remembering the Pre-Existence]]></title>
<link>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/07/30/remembering-the-pre-existence/</link>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>David Larsen</dc:creator>
<guid>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/07/30/remembering-the-pre-existence/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[   Many will probably find this post a bit beyond the parameters of my normal style and subject matt]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div class="mceTemp"><a href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_megXlr3COhM/RjUIPq1f6HI/AAAAAAAAAAs/1fVmSRmqNIo/s1600-h/jesus_hugging.jpg"></a></div>
<div class="mceTemp"> </div>
<p><img class="size-medium wp-image-175 alignleft" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/the_soul_s_remembrance_by_roy_mills.jpg?w=164" alt="" width="164" height="254" /> Many will probably find this post a bit beyond the parameters of my normal style and subject matter, but I have been</p>
<div id="attachment_176" class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 81px"><a href="http://None"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-176 " src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/roy-mills.gif?w=71" alt="Roy Mills" width="71" height="96" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Roy Mills</p></div>
<p>wanting to write on this for some time now.  The purpose of this post is to introduce you to a book called <em><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Remembrance-Earth-Not-Home/dp/1892714159/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&#38;qid=1217419131&#38;sr=11-1" target="_blank">The Soul&#8217;s Remembrance: Earth is not our Home </a></em>(Seattle: Onjinjinkta, 1999)<em>, </em>by <a href="http://www.onjinjinkta.com/authors/roymills.htm" target="_blank">Roy Mills</a>. This is, believe it or not, a book about a man who can remember his life in Heaven before he was born. Roy Mills is not LDS, but is a Southern Baptist from Georgia. However, when my father (who is quite an expert in Near Death Experiences and related matters) gave me this book, <strong>I was amazed to find the author speaking very naturally about a pre-mortal life, claiming that his mission here on Earth was to not have a veil of forgetfulness so that he could teach people about our heavenly origins</strong>. </p>
<p>When I first picked up this book, I had some reservations&#8211;However, as I read the book, I felt a certain sincerity that caused me to set some of those doubts aside.  So I will let you decide whether you believe Mills or not. I will present here some highlights from this most intriguing book.</p>
<p>In <em>The Soul&#8217;s Remembrance, </em>Roy Mills tells the story of his life, which he remembers beginning well before he was born on this Earth. He tells of living in Heaven and of being put through a school, of sorts, to teach and train him about how life would be here. He tells of the angelic guides and teachers that helped him learn, and of the other relationships that he had in Heaven before his mortal life. He tells of heavenly gardens, of recognizing the intelligence that even the flowers had, and of seeing the prayers of mortals reaching heaven as beams of powerful energy. <span style="color:#888888;"><strong>A<span style="color:#000000;">mong the most amazing recollections that Mills recounts are his interactions with both Jesus and God the Father, whom he often terms &#8220;the Spirit Father.&#8221;</span></strong></span><span style="color:#000000;"><strong> </strong>H</span>e remembers receiving a mission to perform here on Earth, coming down to this sphere, and even having his spirit placed within his physical body inside his mother&#8217;s womb. As he grew older, he continued to have contact with familiar angelic beings that he knew from Heaven, although as he &#8220;became more earth-bound&#8221; in his thinking, he began to forget some of what he knew from Heaven. In April of 1995, his angel guide once again appeared to him, and the memories of his heavenly home flooded back into his mind. This angel, whom he knew so well, told him that the time had come to share his recollections of Heaven and that he should write a book.</p>
<p>Mills begins by describing Heaven and his first memories of being &#8220;in-training&#8221; to come to Earth. He recounts:</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>The first of my soul&#8217;s remembrances is of being in a place of very bright, white light. Even the people and angels there glowed with the same pure light.</strong> In fact, everything in Heaven radiated light. It is impossible to accurately describe heavenly things with earthly language, because there just aren&#8217;t words to describe them. All I can say is that Heaven was the most beautiful place I have ever seen.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;">I didn&#8217;t experience any physical sensations like we do on earth. I was never hot or cold or hungry, and I didn&#8217;t feel any pain. In Heaven we had spiritual bodies, like the Bible describes, instead of physical bodies. But I did experience many of the same emotions we have in this life: excitement, joy, caring, compassion, and, most of all, love. There was always a lot of love everywhere&#8230;</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Before birth into mortality, I saw that we were young spirits&#8211;much like children&#8211;and we needed to learn and develop in order to prepare for life on earth&#8230;</strong> I can&#8217;t say how long it lasted&#8211;if it was months or years&#8211;because there was no day or night and no way to track time like we do on earth&#8230;</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>The building where I received my prebirth education had a lot of rooms, and each one was for teaching me a specific thing</strong>. For example, one room was used to introduce me to people who would play an important role in my earthly life, another room was where I selected certain life experiences and was taught about them&#8230;And I had several angel guides during my schooling to assist me in my training and education, but one particular guide stayed with me longer than the rest&#8230;(pp. 6-8)</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"> <a href="http://ldspictures.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/jesuswithchildreninheaven.gif"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-179" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/jesuswithchildreninheaven.gif" alt="" width="382" height="434" /></a></p>
<p>This particular angelic guide was his principal teacher and was the same being who appeared to him in 1995. Mills believes that we all have this type of guardian angel assigned to watch over each of us. On the idea that spirits begin young and eventually grow to maturity, see the current manual, <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&#38;locale=0&#38;sourceId=1d6720596a845110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&#38;hideNav=1&#38;contentLocale=0#" target="_blank"><em>Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith</em></a><em>, </em>Chapter 14, subtitle &#8220;Parents who lose children in death will receive them in the resurrection just as they laid them down,&#8221;<em> </em>pages 176-178.</p>
<p>One of the most important tools used for his pre-Earth training was the Life Book. He describes the nature of these books and how they worked.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;">I wasn&#8217;t sure what the Life Books were, but when I entered the room where I was to learn about them, they were impossible to miss. <strong>A heavenly light shown in the room, flowing from every corner, even from the Life Book itself. The book was very large and thick, as big as a small suitcase. It had an ornate cover and sat on a table about five feet tall.</strong> Just looking at it, my excitement grew. I sensed the importance of the Life Book and how special it would be to my training.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;">The angels were always careful not to let me or anyone else touch the book. <strong>When one of the angels spoke, the book opened by itself to reveal pure white pages. In an excited voice, my instructor asked me what I saw. I replied that I did not see anything except blank pages.  He told me to stare into them and concentrate. I did as he said, and watched in amazement as the book revealed events that would happen in my earthly life. Each page showed me one part of my life, much like a television, and then the page turned by itself</strong> (pp. 9-10).</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Blank_page_intentionally_end_of_book.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-180" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/blank_page_intentionally_end_of_book.jpg?w=300" alt="" width="300" height="205" /></a></p>
<p>Mills was shown, in detail, many of the things that would happen to him in his mortal life: what his body would look like, who his mother would be, his schooling, his marriage, and other experiences. At one point he asked his angel guide if he would eventually return to Heaven.  She replied that it was up to him, and that that was what free will was all about. When he asked about free will, she replied:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>It is each person&#8217;s right to choose to do good or bad when they are on earth&#8230;To love or not to love, to help others or not to help others, to believe in God or not to believe in Him, to live in the light or live in the darkness</strong> (p. 12).</p></blockquote>
<p>Mills goes on to tell of the end of his training and the &#8220;Exit Room&#8221; or &#8220;Holding Room&#8221; that spirits enter as they are being transported to Earth. He can actually remember being led by an angel to where his mother lived and then being &#8220;pushed&#8221; into his infant body inside his mother&#8217;s womb. <strong>He recounts how it was difficult getting used to being in a mortal body, how quickly his mortal mind absorbed his spirit&#8217;s knowledge, and how he struggled to make his spirit and body work as one.  Compared to the free movement of the spirit existence, being in a body felt like &#8220;wearing a jacket made of lead</strong>&#8221; (p. 28). He goes on to tell of how he was frequently visited by angelic beings as a baby, comforting him and helping him accustom to his new Earth life.</p>
<p>One of the greatest points that Mills emphasizes throughout his story is that <strong>our trials in this life have a purpose and that God is always willing to help us overcome them. He tells of how he was given the opportunity to choose which trials he would have in life, and shown the blessings that he would receive for enduring them well.</strong> Each challenge we go through in life helps build our faith and allows us to use the spiritual gifts given to us in Heaven.  Our trials were chosen by us and approved by God to fit our specific mission in life. He explains:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Our physical bodies are only a temporary home for our spirits, and nothing can truly harm who we really are. So when I selected my earthly experiences, I had no concern for what they would do to my physical body. I knew that the more I suffered for others, or because of others, the more I would grow in spirit. And with that knowledge, I had a completely different perspective on adversity and the experiences I chose for my own life</strong> (p. 118).</p></blockquote>
<p>The mightiest spirits are those who, like Jesus, chose to suffer the most.  It is important for us, says Mills, to never just accept the problems we face in life. <strong>In the spirit realm, we did not choose our trials in order to just <em>live</em> with them&#8211;we chose them in order to learn and grow by <em>overcoming </em>them.</strong> God did not let us choose any challenge that we would not be able to overcome, and has given us the tools and spiritual gifts necessary to do so. We need to learn to depend on God to help us overcome these trials.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bookofmormonposters.com/images/jesus43.gif"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-181" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/jesusgethsemane.gif" alt="" width="302" height="242" /></a></p>
<p>While there is much more of interest in this little book (144 pgs.), I will conclude by giving the two most special and glorious recollections that Mills shares from his pre-mortal experience. In the first, Mills describes entering an immense room divided by a veil.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;">I saw two figures standing behind the sheer curtains. One was a large angel, and the other was a man with the kindest face I&#8217;ve ever seen. The room was filled with a golden tint, but the space all around the man glowed with a bright, pure white.  The light was radiating from him, and I had never seen anyone whose light was so pure and glowed so strongly. I entered the room, and the man looked at me, smiling.  A knowing passed between us, and <strong>I immediately knew that this was Jesus, my Savior</strong> (p. 111).</p>
<p>As the angel tried to show him something, Mills found that he could not draw his eyes away from Jesus. The other angel became rather upset that Mills was not listening, but Jesus showed only love. He tells of how Jesus then embraced him:</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Then He did come closer, and He swooped me up in His arms like I was a child. Both Jesus and I were glowing brightly from the wonderful light of His love, and as He held me to his chest, I imagine I was the happiest spirit in Heaven that day. I held on tight, telling him how much I loved Him, and we talked and laughed and hugged each other over and over again</strong> (p. 113).<a href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_megXlr3COhM/RjUIPq1f6HI/AAAAAAAAAAs/1fVmSRmqNIo/s1600-h/jesus_hugging.jpg"></a><a href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_megXlr3COhM/RjUIPq1f6HI/AAAAAAAAAAs/1fVmSRmqNIo/s1600-h/jesus_hugging.jpg"></a></p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/jesus-hug2.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-178" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/jesus-hug2.jpg" alt="Home at Last by Danny Hahlbohm" width="326" height="432" /></a></p>
<p>At the conclusion of the book, Mills recalls the most wonderful experience that he can remember from his pre-Earth life. This event took place before his preparatory training began. He remembers being in a large and glorious room, which he soon realized was the Throne Room of the Father.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>As I looked around, I saw that this section of the auditorium faced a large elevated platform that was several feet higher than the area where I was standing. A very large, pure white chair sat in the center of the raised floor, a few feet back from the edge.  The chair was simple in design, but very impressive. It glowed with a powerful, pure white light. It was then that I realized I was in the Throne Room, and that I was waiting in the area where the audience of souls was to stand before the Spirit Father&#8230;I was going to see the Father</strong> (p. 131)!</p>
<p>A great multitude of spirits was gathered there, waiting to receive their mortal life&#8217;s mission from God himself.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Once the audience of souls was assembled, an incredibly bright sphere of light appeared at one side of the throne area&#8230;[it] moved across the floor and came to rest on the glowing throne. Looking at the light was like seeing the sun from only a few yards away.  But it didn&#8217;t burn my eyes, though it was infinitely brighter than the noonday sun. It was the most brilliant, pure, and magnificent light I&#8217;ve ever seen. it was the source of all light in Heaven and elsewhere&#8211;the Spirit Father, God, Himself</strong> (p. 132).</p>
<p>A heavenly escort of a couple dozen high-ranking angelic beings accompanied the Father as He entered. They wore white, crimson, or blue robes trimmed with gold. Two special beings stood near the throne, shining with such glory that they appeared to Mills to be engulfed in flames. However, <strong>the brightest glory surrounded the Father, whose light was so bright that Mills could only see his forearms and the lower half of his legs and feet</strong>. Eventually, it was Mills turn to approach the Father and receive his personal mission (which would be a special mission to remember Heaven and share his memories with others). He was called by name and brought to the Throne in a ball of light. After he had received his mission, the Father allowed him to see into His glory and behold Him directly.</p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>Then He allowed me to see into His light, and I saw Him, and he looked like a man. We are truly made in the image of our Creator.</strong></p>
<p style="padding-left:30px;"><strong>His appearance was one of great wisdom and strength. He was powerful-looking and very tall&#8211;much taller than the average man. The robe He wore shone with a pure white light, and He wore no shoes. There was a neat fringe of white hair around his head, and a crown of light suspended <em>above </em>his head. His face was very kind and loving, yet strong and marked with authority.  As I stared at Him, I was filled with awe and humility, but I also felt safe and very loved</strong> (pp. 139-140).</p>
<div id="attachment_182" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 427px"><a href="http://www.creativeworks.byu.edu/catalog/products/council.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-182" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/council.jpg" alt="Grand Council by Robert Barrett" width="417" height="522" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Grand Council by Robert Barrett</p></div>
<p>The Father reviewed with him the difficulties his earth life would hold, but assured him that He would always be ready to help him and that he could always call on Him. He told him that Jesus died so that he could return to Heaven. This experience with the Father has helped Mills through all the difficult times of his life.</p>
<p>I recommend that you take at look at this unique book. As Latter-day Saints, we believe in, teach and wonder about our pre-mortal life with God in Heaven&#8211;but how often do you come across someone who can actually remember it? If what Mills has written is true, <em>The Soul&#8217;s Remembrance </em>is an amazing example of someone who can. And what&#8217;s more, this comes from a non-LDS source. In his closing thoughts, Mills declares:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>God sent us here to learn love in a greater way and to share our love with everyone around us.  We must always remember that we are much, much more than our minds and our bodies, and that earth is definitely not our home. Thanks to my heavenly memories, I know that all of us are here for a reason. Life <em>does </em>have a purpose&#8211;and that purpose is love. Everything we think or say or do is important to our growth and the growth of every other spirit on earth</strong> (p. 143).</p></blockquote>
<p> <a href="http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/miss/images/c07-3.gif"><img class="alignnone" src="http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/miss/images/c07-3.gif" alt="" width="383" height="260" /></a></p>
<p><em>Note: The pictures included in this post are not taken from Mills&#8217; book.</em></p>
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<title><![CDATA[A Well of Springing Water]]></title>
<link>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/07/28/a-well-of-springing-water/</link>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>David Larsen</dc:creator>
<guid>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/07/28/a-well-of-springing-water/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Ever since I began this blog (two months ago yesterday), I have been making an on-going commentary o]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><div class="mceTemp"><a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg"></a><a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg?w=191" alt="" width="191" height="300" /></a>Ever since I began this blog (two months ago yesterday), I have been making an on-going commentary on Margaret Barker&#8217;s book, <em>Temple Themes in Christian Worship </em>(London: T&#38;T Clark, 2007). While I have greatly enjoyed this in-depth analysis of Barker&#8217;s research, I do not wish to be tedious and am anxious to cover new material. However, as I consider Barker&#8217;s work to be of extremely high caliber and of great interest to LDS readers, I highly recommend this book and all her others for your serious consideration. While all her books are excellent&#8211;and each deserves a look&#8211;her more recent books summarize, build upon and add to her older books. So if your book budget is limited and you are trying to decide which to look at, you would probably do very well to look at her most recent works.</div>
<p>Besides <em>Temple Themes, </em>I would also highly recommend <em><strong>The Hidden Tradition of the Kingdom of God</strong> </em>(London: SPCK, <a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/barkerhiddentradition.jpg"><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-165" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/barkerhiddentradition.jpg" alt="" width="150" height="237" /></a>2007). This book seems to be hard to get a hold of here in the US (I have had to check it out from the university library). I have also heard that she will have a book released in October called <em>Christmas: The Original Story, </em>the exact content matter of which (besides the obvious) I am not certain. As Barker continues to write books at an amazing pace, you can look forward to more exciting and enlightening research from her.</p>
<p>Before reluctantly setting <em>Temple Themes </em>aside, I wish to share some further select tidbits that I found especially enlightening.</p>
<p>On page 151, Barker cites Theodotus, a Gnostic quoted by Clement of Alexandria, who taught that the Son of God was &#8220;<strong>drawn in outline in the beginning</strong>&#8221; (Excerpts 19). The beginning, naturally, refers to the period of (and before) the Creation&#8211;more specifically here, the <strong>spiritual creation</strong>. In the temple, according to Barker, this unseen spiritual reality was represented in the Holy of Holies. She notes:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>The &#8220;beginning&#8221; was the holy of holies, and so he [Theodotus] tried to describe the non-material state as flat, existing only in &#8220;outline&#8221;. Sometimes this was described as the engraved state; each part of the creation had its own assigned place which was as much as &#8221;engraved&#8221; as were the divine laws.</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>For more on this &#8220;engraved&#8221; state as the heavenly counterpart of the physical/mortal state, please see my post &#8220;<a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/engraved-on-the-throne-of-glory/" target="_blank">Engraved on the Throne of Glory</a>.&#8221; Another Gnostic text describes how the physical forms that we know were based on a pre-existent spiritual &#8220;pattern&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>The uncreated one brought forth the pattern of the uncreated, for it is from the uncreated that the Father brings forth into a shape. The created is a shadow of pre-existing things</strong> (Valentian Exposition, CG XI.2.35).</p></blockquote>
<dl class="wp-caption alignnone">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"><a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/animal-drawings.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-166" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/animal-drawings.jpg?w=217" alt="Animal Drawings by Giovannino de’ Grassi (d. 1398)" width="217" height="300" /></a></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd">Animal Drawings by Giovannino de’ Grassi (d. 1398)</dd>
</dl>
<p>The idea that God used a spiritual pattern or outline to create the physical forms we see in this world is an important concept that Latter-day Saints should recognize from modern temple teachings.</p>
<div class="mceTemp"><a href="http://davidjlarsen.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/god-creates-animals.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-168" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/god-creates-animals.jpg?w=300" alt="" width="300" height="220" /></a></div>
<p>Barker explains that the idea that a pre-existing, spirit God could become a physical man <strong>was a profoundly Jewish belief</strong> (see J. Neusner<em>, The Incarnation of God: The Character of Divinity in Formative Judaism</em>, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1988).  Barker notes that &#8220;anthropomorphism&#8230;implies incarnation&#8221; (p. 153). The Babylonian Talmud, which was not effected by the Palestinian Jewish vs. Christian polemics over anthropomorphism, declared that &#8220;<strong>God became Man</strong>&#8221; (see Neusner, p. 166).</p>
<p>Barker provides an interesting theory on the question of how God was physically seen in his temple. This relates directly to my last post on the <a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/the-psalms-hymn-book-of-the-temple/" target="_blank">Psalms</a>. To not leave out any of her amazing insight, I quote directly (pp. 160-161):</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>The Psalmist had seen the Glory of the LORD entering the temple in human form</strong>. He sang of the King of Glory entering the ancient doors (Ps 24:7-9).  He knew that the<strong> LORD was clothed with honour, majesty and light</strong> (Ps 104:1-2). He also sang of a <strong>great procession</strong> &#8211;singers and minstrels entering the temple with &#8220;my King, my God&#8221; (Ps 68:24-5). What had he seen? <strong>Elsewhere in his world he might have seen a statue dressed in golden robes being taken into a temple, but Jerusalem had no statues.</strong> The King, the royal high priest, was God with his people, Immanuel, and so the King of Glory entering the temple was probably <strong>the human king in his role as the visible presence of the LORD</strong>.  <strong>When there were no more kings in Jerusalem, the Aaronite high priest had that role</strong>, and the prescription for his vestments shows something of their original meaning. They were &#8220;for Glory and for beauty&#8221; (Exod 28:2), and the high priest wore the Name on his forehead (Exod 28:36-7). <strong>When Enoch stood before the throne in heaven&#8230;he was anointed and then vested with the Glory of the Lord&#8230;[including] &#8220;the garments of my Glory&#8221;</strong> (2 Enoch 22:8). The meaning of the vestments was long remembered: <strong>they had been the garments of God</strong> (Exodus Rabbah XXXVIII:8).</p>
<p><a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg"></a><a href="http://www.needlenthread.com/Images/Miscellaneous/Ecclesiastical/God_The_Father_Cope_01.jpg"><img src="http://www.needlenthread.com/Images/Miscellaneous/Ecclesiastical/God_The_Father_Cope_01.jpg" alt="Ecclesiastical Embroidery depicting the Father in gold robes, holding the Son" width="400" height="300" /></a><a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg"></a></p>
<div class="mceTemp">
<dl class="wp-caption alignnone">
<dt class="wp-caption-dt"></dt>
<dd class="wp-caption-dd">Ecclesiastical Embroidery depicting the Father in gold robes, holding the Son</dd>
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<p><a href="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/m-barker-temple-themes.jpg"></a><span style="color:#000000;">Persisting traditions from ancient Israel declared that <strong>the very name Israel meant &#8220;the one who sees God</strong>.&#8221; Barker cites J.Z. Smith concerning the frequency with which Philo and other Jewish writers used this particular definition of &#8220;Israel&#8221;: &#8220;<strong>This &#8216;occurs twenty three times in the Philonic corpus, and is expressed or implied in some twenty six additional texts</strong>&#8216;&#8221; (p. 154, citing J.Z. Smith, &#8220;The Prayer of Joseph&#8221; in Religions in Antiquity: Essays in Memory of E. R. Goodenough, ed. J. Neusner, Leiden: Brill, 1970, pp. 253-94, p. 265). Philo doesn&#8217;t argue why Israel should mean &#8220;the one who sees God&#8221;: he simply assumes that the meaning is well known. Modern scholars often discount this etymology, but Barker gives significant evidence that <strong>both many Jewish and Christian circles held this to be the true meaning</strong> (pp. 154-160). Furthermore, it is implied that the name <strong>Israel is more of a divine title than a personal name</strong>, as Philo refers to the prophet Samuel as &#8220;<strong>the seer of God, that is Israel</strong>&#8221; (Who is the Heir 78). <strong>Thus, there was an important tradition that survived into Christian times that God could be seen by mortals, and that this was a key feature of the religion of ancient Israel</strong>.</span></p>
<p>I have not presented any of the material from Chapters 7-9, which cover the Sacrament and music and their relation to/derivation from Temple themes. That is not because there is nothing noteworthy in these chapters, because there certainly is.  Again, I encourage you to take a look at the book (and no, Margaret Barker is not paying me to do advertising for her books).  I close this post and my commentary on <em>Temple Themes in Christian Worship </em>with the closing lines from Barker: </p>
<blockquote><p><strong>If only we knew what Basil knew when he wrote about the tradition of the apostles handed down in a mystery!</strong></p>
<p>All the mysteries concerned worship, and the overall pattern, as we have seen, can be traced back to the temple. <strong>As the Church lost touch with these roots, the practices acquired new explanations</strong>. The world of the temple also faded from view, and <strong>much that had been authentic temple tradition was identified as Platonism.</strong></p>
<p><strong>The details of this sketch need to be filled in, but there is enough here, I trust, to show where the roots of Christian worship and its world view are to be found.</strong> </p></blockquote>
<p><img class="size-full wp-image-80 alignleft" src="http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/solomon_temple-bronze-sea1.jpg" alt="Bronze Sea at Solomon's Temple" width="239" height="439" /></p>
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<title><![CDATA[June 8, 1978: Revelation on the Priesthood: 30 Years Later]]></title>
<link>http://thinkinginamarrowbone.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/june-8-1978/</link>
<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
<guid>http://thinkinginamarrowbone.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/june-8-1978/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[Last Sunday (June 8, 2008), a member of my ward, Whitney, gave an excellent talk in sacrament meetin]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><em>Last Sunday (June 8, 2008), a member of my ward, <a href="http://thediscardpile.blogspot.com/">Whitney</a>, gave an excellent talk in sacrament meeting in commemoration of the 30 year anniversary of the revelation on the priesthood (the formal announcement of). With Whitney&#8217;s permission, I am including a written version of his talk here. It is an excellent talk, which speaks honestly of some of the historical difficulties with this topic, and addresses how we need to move forward with better racial relations in the Church.<br />
</em></p>
<p>We generally speak of the restoration of the gospel in the past tense. We refer frequently to the spring of 1820 and to April 6, 1830. Article of Faith 9, however, encourages us to take a more expansive view. That “He will yet reveal many great and important things” signifies an ongoing restoration and one which continues today. June 8, 1978, thirty years ago today, the date when the priesthood was extended to all worthy males, and the blessings of the temple to all worthy members of the church, “without regard for race or color,” is a date that ought to hold a place next to those early dates of the 1800s when we speak of the restoration of the gospel. For without the full blessings of the restoration extended to every worthy member, the restoration of the gospel remains an incomplete one. Just as those important early dates of church history give us the chance to reflect upon the first vision and the founding of the church, so does today allow us the chance to reflect back upon our history and the current state of race relations within the church.<!--more--></p>
<p>I was born in 1984, six years after the revelation, and therefore have never lived in a time when the priesthood was restricted on the basis of race. As such, while I was growing up, it was not something that I often thought about or discussed on a regular basis. That changed when I began my missionary service in South Chicago, where I was offered frequent opportunities to discuss the topic of the priesthood ban. On a number of occasions I met people whose only knowledge of the Mormons was that they had denied priesthood authority because of race. These were, without exception, difficult conversations.</p>
<p>Part of the difficulty was that it had quickly become apparent to me that there were more good questions than good answers. There are statements made and actions taken by individuals and the church which appear to contradict previous statements and actions. As we commemorate this important day, we have a responsibility to reflect upon our history and acknowledge any incongruities that exist, in order that we may as individuals, congregations, and as a church become a more Zion-like and a more Christ-like people.</p>
<p><strong>History and Elijah Abel</strong></p>
<p>(<em>Many of the following historical facts were taken from <a href="http://mormonstories.org/blacksandtheldspriesthood/">John Dehlin’s interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young.</a></em>) If we go back the time of Joseph Smith, we are immediately met with our first series of incongruities. During the prophet’s lifetime, the church invited all free people of color to join and participate in their community. Among those who joined the church in that period were a small number of African-American men who were baptized and ordained to the priesthood. The most well known of these is a man by the name of Elijah Abel, who was baptized in 1832, ordained an Elder on March 3, 1836 (according to one source by Joseph Smith Jr. himself), and in December of that same year was ordained to the office of the Seventy. Brother Abel served the church faithfully throughout his life. He served three missions and helped to build temples in Kirtland, Nauvoo, and Salt Lake City. He received the temple ordinance of the washing and anointing while at Kirtland.</p>
<p>Church leaders were aware of Abel&#8217;s race; however, it was not seen as a problem with regard to the priesthood until the Utah period. In 1853, his request for the endowment was denied by Brigham Young. Then in 1879, the first conflict with Abel actually holding the priesthood arose when Zebedee Coltrin claimed that in 1834 Joseph Smith Jr. had received a revelation that blacks could not receive the priesthood and that when Joseph learned of Abel’s race, he had been dropped from the office of Seventy. Coltrin&#8217;s claims were challenged at that time by then-apostle Joseph F. Smith who produced ordination certificates verifying Abel’s continued status as a priesthood holder. His claims are also rebuffed by the fact that Coltrin himself had ordained Abel to the office of Seventy &#8212; two years after he claimed that Joseph had received the revelation restricting the priesthood. Elijah Abel was again denied in his request for the endowment in 1880 by the Quorum of the Twelve. However, in 1883 Brother Abel was still on record as a Seventy and in 1884 served his third and final mission for the church. He died in December of that same year. In 1895, eleven years after Abel’s death, he was again discussed by the Quorum of the Twelve and Joseph F. Smith again refuted claims that he had ever been dropped from the Seventy. Twelve years later in 1908, for reasons that appear nowhere in written history, Joseph F. Smith reversed his position and claimed that Joseph Smith himself had voided Abel’s ordination.</p>
<p>Elijah Abel’s history reveals a number of inconsistencies: from the conflict between Brother Coltrin’s actions in 1836 and his claims in 1879, to Joseph F. Smith’s change of position in 1908, to Abel receiving temple ordinances in Kirtland but not in Salt Lake. One thing that his history clearly establishes is that throughout this early period of the church any established policy regarding priesthood restriction was unclear even among church leadership.</p>
<p>There are a number of other important developments that take place over this same period of time. In 1844, Joseph Smith was running for President of the United States on an anti-slavery platform which sought to end slavery in the U.S. by 1850. In 1845, Orson Hyde was the first in the church to speculate on record that blacks were a “cursed lineage” because of actions in the pre-existence. However, two years after Hyde’s statement, Brigham Young stated, “It’s nothing to do with the blood for one blood has God made all flesh” and then added, referring to Walker Lewis (another African-American who held the priesthood in the early period of the church), that “we have one of the best Elders, an African in Lowell [Massachusetts].” This statement lies in stark contrast to a number of statements made by Brigham Young later in his life. Finaly, in 1852, slavery was given legal recognition in the Territory of Deseret. This appears as somewhat of mixed bag of historical facts, but shows that within the church, just as in society as a whole, there were various different opinions on the subject of race relations.</p>
<p>While the restriction of priesthood appears to have evolved gradually, by 1949 the First Presidency had affirmed that it was a “direct commandment from the Lord&#8221; (<em>Neither White nor Black: Mormon Scholars Confront the Race Issue in a Universal Church</em>, eds. Lester E. Bush Jr. and Armand L. Mauss, [Midvale, UT: Signature Books, 1984], pg. 221). However, throughout the 1960s and 1970s, while the civil rights movement was taking place in the U.S., there continued to be differing opinions on whether priesthood restriction was doctrine or policy or practice. Over this long period the general authorities of the church earnestly researched the policy and prayed for guidance on this matter. On June 1, 1978, the revelation that the priesthood and temple blessings would be made available without regard for race or color came as President Spencer W. Kimball prayed with the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve in the Salt Lake Temple. The revelation was announced in a general letter dated June 8, 1978.</p>
<p><strong>Moving Forward</strong></p>
<p><strong></strong>Today we still have with us a large number of quotations logged away in the <em>Journal of Discourses</em>, old conference talks, and books such as <em>Mormon Doctrine</em> (and now carefully archived by a quick Google search), which at best reflect views towards race that are representative of the time in which they were given, but express attitudes that are, nonetheless, racially prejudiced, at times bitterly so, and which still cause pain to many within the church and outside the church. What are we to with such statements? As we continue to move forward as a church it is important to keep two thoughts in mind:</p>
<p>The first is from a talk given by Elder Bruce R. McConkie two months after the revelation on the priesthood (<a href="http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11017">&#8220;All Are Alike Unto God&#8221;</a>). McConkie said on that occasion:</p>
<blockquote><p>Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don&#8217;t matter any more.</p></blockquote>
<p>The second thought to keep in mind is from an <a href="http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html">interview with Elder Jeffrey R. Holland (from the recent PBS documentary <em>The Mormons</em>)</a>, regarding the folklore that developed within the church regarding the priesthood restriction:</p>
<blockquote><p>Some of the folklore that you must be referring to are suggestions that there were decisions made in the pre-mortal councils where someone had not been as decisive in their loyalty to a Gospel plan or the procedures on earth or what was to unfold in mortality, and that therefore that opportunity and mortality was compromised&#8230;.</p>
<p>One clear-cut position is that [such] folklore must never be perpetuated&#8230;. I have to concede to my earlier colleagues&#8230;. They, I&#8217;m sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong&#8230;. We simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.</p></blockquote>
<p>Elder Holland describes our responsibility to not perpetuate these false explanations as the “least…of our current responsibilities on that topic.” President Gordon B. Hinckley went further in explaining our responsibilities with regard to race relations in the Priesthood Session of the April 2006 General Conference (<a href="http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-602-20,00.html">&#8220;The Need for Greater Kindness&#8221;</a>):</p>
<blockquote><p>Racial strife still lifts its ugly head. I am advised that even right here among us there is some of this. I cannot understand how it can be. It seemed to me that we all rejoiced in the 1978 revelation given President Kimball&#8230;.</p>
<p>I remind you that no [one] who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider [themselves] a true disciple of Christ. Nor can [they] consider [themselves] to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ.</p></blockquote>
<p>The way forward for us as individuals, congregations, and as a church, has been made clear. We must follow the example of Christ. It was he who spoke of a good Samaritan who set aside generations of ethnic conflict to show compassion to a Jewish man left for dead. It was Christ who taught that the second great commandment was to “love thy neighbor as thyself,” and then offered us his example by sitting down to eat with “publicans and sinners” and having compassion on Roman centurions. It was he who finally gave up his life for all and now “denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female” (2 Nephi 26:33). It is my prayer that we may follow the example of Christ by showing love and compassion to all of our brothers and sisters regardless of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, age, or any other characteristic which might prevent us from doing so.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/emailFlare?itemTitle=June%208%2C%201978%3A%20Revelation%20on%20the%20Priesthood%3A%2030%20Years%20Later%20%C2%AB%20Thinking%20in%20a%20Marrow%20Bone&#38;uri=http%3A%2F%2Fthinkinginamarrowbone.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F06%2F10%2Fjune-8-1978%2F" target="_blank">Email a friend</a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[The Hymn of the Pearl, a.k.a. The Hymn of the Soul, a.k.a. The Hymn of the Robe of Glory]]></title>
<link>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/06/03/the-hymn-of-the-pearl-aka-the-hymn-of-the-soul-aka-the-hymn-of-the-robe-of-glory/</link>
<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>David Larsen</dc:creator>
<guid>http://heavenlyascents.com/2008/06/03/the-hymn-of-the-pearl-aka-the-hymn-of-the-soul-aka-the-hymn-of-the-robe-of-glory/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[My professor, Dr. Andrei Orlov, introduced me to a poem that I think more Latter-day Saints should k]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.celtoslavica.de/slavica/pics/paradiesvogel.jpg" alt="" />My professor, Dr. Andrei Orlov, introduced me to a poem that I think more Latter-day Saints should know about. It is found within the apocryphal work <em>The Acts of Thomas, </em>which is known to have circulated in the 4th century and recounts the missionary journeys of Judas Thomas the Apostle to India. It is known in Greek and Syriac versions and has a rather Gnostic flavor notwithstanding it having been used by orthodox Christians. </p>
<p><em>The Hymn of the Pearl </em>is a hymn or poem that is inserted into the text and said to have been spoken by the apostle while he was in prison. Interestingly, it doesn&#8217;t seem to have anything to do with the apostle&#8217;s life, but speaks of a journey of an individual who lived in the glorious kingdom of his parents, where he enjoyed all kinds of treasures and luxuries. His parents decide to send him to &#8220;Egypt&#8221; on a mission to retrieve a special treasure, The Pearl, which is guarded by a terrible serpent. They remove his <em>glorious robe</em> and royal vestments and prepare him to go on his mission. If he w as successful in his mission, this glory would be restored to him.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style="font-size:small;"><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><span> </span>&#8220;If thou goest down into Egypt,<br />
And thence thou bring’st the one Pearl &#8211;</span></span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:Times New Roman;">&#8220;[The Pearl] that lies in the Sea,<br />
Hard by the loud-breathing Serpent &#8211;</span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:Times New Roman;">&#8220;[Then] shalt Thou put on thy Robe<br />
And thy Mantle that goeth upon it,</span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:Times New Roman;">&#8220;<strong>And with thy Brother, Our Second,<br />
Shalt thou be Heir in our Kingdom</strong>.&#8221;</span></p>
<p>Throughout the hymn, we can perhaps perceive references to our Heavenly Parents, Pre-existence, Plan of Salvation, our mortal life, and the promise of jointly inheriting the Father&#8217;s Kingdom, together with the Second, Jesus Christ.<br />
But as he began to mix with &#8220;the Egyptians,&#8221; he began to forget his earthly mission and Whose son he truly was.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">But from some occasion or other<br />
They learned I was not of their country.<br />
With their wiles they made my acquaintance;<br />
Yea, they gave me their victuals to eat.<br />
<strong>I forgot that I was a King&#8217;s son,<br />
And became a slave to their king.<br />
I forgot all concerning the Pearl<br />
For which my Parents had sent me;<br />
</strong>And from the weight of their victuals<br />
I sank down into a deep sleep.</p>
<p>The Royal Parents do not forget their child, but send him a letter to remind him of who he is and what his mission is.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">&#8220;From Us &#8212; King of Kings, thy Father,<br />
And thy Mother, Queen of the Dawn-land,<br />
&#8220;And from Our Second, thy Brother &#8211;<br />
To thee, Son, down in Egypt, Our Greeting!<br />
&#8220;Up an arise from thy sleep,<br />
Give ear to the words of Our Letter!<br />
<strong>&#8220;Remember that thou art a King&#8217;s son;<br />
See whom thou hast served in thy slavedom.<br />
Bethink thyself of the Pearl<br />
For which thou didst journey to Egypt.<br />
&#8220;Remember thy Glorious Robe,<br />
Thy Splendid Mantle remember,<br />
&#8220;To put on and wear as adornment,<br />
When thy Name may be read in the Book of the Heroes,<br />
&#8220;And with Our Successor, thy Brother,<br />
Thou mayest be Heir in Our Kingdom.&#8221;<br />
</strong>My Letter was [surely] a Letter<br />
The King had sealed up with His Right Hand,</p>
<p>He remembers his mission and goes on to conquer the dragon and obtain the pearl, then returns to his royal home.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">I remembered that I was a King&#8217;s son,<br />
And my rank did long for its nature.<br />
I bethought me again of the Pearl,<br />
For which I was sent down to Egypt.<br />
And I began [then] to charm him,<br />
The terrible loud-breathing Serpent.<br />
I lulled him to sleep and to slumber,<br />
Chanting o&#8217;er him the Name of my Father,<br />
The Name of our Second, [my Brother],<br />
And [Name] of my Mother, the East-Queen.<br />
And [thereon] I snatched up the Pearl,<br />
And turned to the House of my Father.<br />
Their filthy and unclean garments<br />
I stripped off and left in their country.<br />
To the way that I came I betook me,<br />
To the Light of our Home, to the Dawn-land.</p>
<p>When he reaches his (heavenly) home, he regains his royal robe and mantle and is crowned with glory. He is welcomed home by his Parents, his elder Brother, and the rest of the Royal Court.</p>
<p style="text-align:center;">My Glorious Robe that I&#8217;d stripped off,<br />
And my Mantle with which it was covered,<br />
Down from the Heights of Hyrcania,<br />
Thither my Parents did send me,<br />
By the hands of their Treasure-dispensers<br />
Who trustworthy were with it trusted.<br />
Without my recalling its fashion, &#8211;<br />
In the House of my Father my childhood had left it,&#8211;<br />
<strong>At once, as soon as I saw it,<br />
The Glory looked like my own self.<br />
</strong>******<br />
I clothed me therewith, and ascended<br />
To the Gate of Greeting and Homage.<br />
I bowed my head and did homage<br />
To the Glory of Him who had sent it,<br />
Whose commands I [now] had accomplished,<br />
And who had, too, done what He&#8217;d promised.<br />
[And there] at the Gate of His House-sons<br />
I mingled myself with His Princes;<br />
For He had received me with gladness,<br />
And I was with Him in His Kingdom;<br />
To whom the whole of His Servants<br />
With sweet-sounding voices sing praises.<br />
* * * * *<br />
He had promised that with him to the Court<br />
Of the King of Kings I should speed,<br />
And taking with me my Pearl<br />
Should with him be seen by our King.<br />
The Hymn of Judas Thomas the Apostle,<br />
which he spake in prison, is ended.</p>
<p>I have only quoted parts of this amazing document here. If you want to read the whole thing (in two different translations), go to: <a href="http://www.gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm" target="_blank">http://www.gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm</a></p>
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<title><![CDATA[A Child of God]]></title>
<link>http://mormonsoprano.com/2008/03/06/a-child-of-god/</link>
<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
<dc:creator>MoSop</dc:creator>
<guid>http://mormonsoprano.com/2008/03/06/a-child-of-god/</guid>
<description><![CDATA[I am a Child of God, and He has Sent me Here, Has given me an earthly home, with parents Kind and De]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[I am a Child of God, and He has Sent me Here, Has given me an earthly home, with parents Kind and De]]></content:encoded>
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