She was gonna get with the other black guy worth $400MM, but, oh, wait, there wasn't one

So yesterday on twitter, had a great little back and forth with some of the homies and homettes about paying for dates. As one might expect, the discussion split among gender lines pretty quickly. The guys all said they appreciated when a woman actually pays for a date. Not the first date, mind you, but somewhere during the courtship, it was pretty much unanimously agreed upon that it’s a good look to “get this one”. at some point. The ladies were atually a little more fractured. You had the fundamentalist hardliners, who like Hamas, refuse to compromise and believe the male should always pay. They argue that by paying for a date, the woman is:

1. Emasculating the guy, since that’s traditionally his role

“@bsleet definitely not about you being less valuable, but it is about some gender roles that predate us all. no woman in her right mind pays”

“@FarajiFTW i think your bar is set pretty low. only men who fuck with lames expect to be paid for. ..”

“@cakemama cake should not be money. let cake be how you spoil a dude with care, not how you emasculate him by paying for shit”

2. That fly, educated, fine women shouldn’t have to pay because the man will want to take care of them:

“@farajiftw at the end of the day no man expects a fine/fly/smart woman to be paying for their dates. now if she’s not fine/smart/fly…”

“@farajiftw when you know what you’re bringing to the table, you don’t pay for a dude to stick around and find out. period. only a lame pays”

3. They bring value to the table not in terms of monetary contribution, but other shit:

“@farajiftw my value is my company and these dope assed titties you ain’t seen naked yet. hate to sound prostitutional but thats the way it b”

“@FarajiFTW you don’t know what i bring. i bring some shit too the table that niggas didn’t even think to ask abt.like damn she that AND that”

@farajiftw its not about abilites, she can pay for her own meal, but would u rather her cook or u? something to b said for…

RT @CharnikaMonique:im allabout traditionas well @adwoa14 i believein him playin hisrole and meplayin mine somewomen take indepdent thng2far

But then there was the more pragmatic side. We’l call them Fatah. They’re a little less traditional and more prone to being financially invested:

@farajiftw i’ll be crucified but…any guy that i have let pay for *everything* i didnt really feel too much

@farajiftw never tried it…we both just took turns taking each other out…a dutch hybrid. that worked well

@adwoa14 i’d assume that most men don’t date just to have another mouth to feed…if that was a case they could just have a child

me NEVER paying is like cooking while you’re at my house and only making enough for me…it’s just rude

@adwoa14 dates too…not the first few but eventually something has to give if y’all keep on going out

I think its an interesting conversation and speaks to how the shifting role of gender in the workplace, academia, and real life is impacting dating. As far as my take, it comes from experience. My relationships in which a woman has been willing to pay for a date have given me a certain comfort level that she’s not just there for free dinners or to leach me dry. They’ve been on the whole longer and more productive relationships, and they’ve also been the ones in which I ended up comiting to and putting a title on it. The relationships in which the woman has never paid or never offered to pay were typically ended up as jump-offs or casual side deals. I also typically ended up being much more willing to invest financially in a woman who showed a willingness to do the same. It may be just a byproduct of them being more involved relationships, but they got trips, gifts, and Morton’s. The ones that never paid typically topped out at oh, maybe say Mexican Cantina. Not saying that’s the final word or everyone’s experience but that’s mine. I think there are both men and women on both sides and I respect it both. If you like it, I love it.

That said, if you’re a “traditional” woman in terms of the finances of dating and you’re in the upper income stream, you’re gloriously fucked (Assuming you’re banking on dating a black man). Here’s why. The whole women’s lib and women’s rights movement has been predicated on the advancement of women toward equality with men in terms of education and career achievement. The idea is that there should be no income differential between men and women. For the black community, we actually may have overshot. Black women may be actually wealthier and have better paying jobs than black men when taken as an aggregate. A Brookings institute study in 2005 found that the individual income differential between white men and white women ages 30-39 was almost $20,000. For Black men and black women, the difference was less than $4,000. Since we’re talking about the upper middle to capitalist class here, those numbers are going to skew differently, but let’s take a look at the education statistics:

In 2005, only 28.6 percent of Black students enrolled in master’s degree programs were male, and Black males constituted only 3.1 percent of all master’s students in the United States

Read that shit slow so it sinks in. Only 28.6% of Black Master’s students are male. That means roughly a 3:1 ratio. I hate being the guy to harp on the “shortfall” as my female friends call it. I think it’ s unfortunate, but I see lots of women making it through that and finding a man all the time. I have tons of friends with advanced degrees or bachelor’s but make advanced degree money who are single. It ain’t like they don’t exist.

There's a brother! Nope, Indian, there's one.. no, Greek, there's one..no, janitor

But here’s where the screwage comes in: If you believe in the “traditional” method of “Man always pays”, you pretty much NEED to be with a man that makes more than you. It’s really that simple. Here’s why. If you make the same amount of money as the guy you’re dating (Women’s lib worked), by engaging the traditional “man pays” model, you effectively make him the poorer party in the relationship, simply because his expenses are higher. How much this actually eats into his wealth is a direct function of how much money he makes of course, and what his other expenditures are. But if you go out twice a week during the initial courtship stage, at an average of $60/event and go out 6 weeks before you make the go/no-go decision to be in a relationship, he’s in $720. Let’s assume since this is just the courtship stage, he’ll also see other women, using the same pricing model, but less often. If he goes out with two other traditional women, maybe once every two weeks, that’s another $360. That’s a total of $1,080. Let’s say for whatever reason, the decision at the end of that 6 week period is a no-go. You decide to not get into a relationship and so the cycle gets repeated. If he really has bad luck and runs through this cycle say five times a year, that comes to $5400. Let’s also say that you and this guy have similarly active social lives. I men, you actually have to go out to meet people since there are likely few eligible blacks at your workplace and you don’t shit where you eat.  You both go out to lounges, clubs, etc. As a man, his expenses are going to be higher as well. I’d guess unscientifically, a man spends twice what a woman would have to spend to have the same time. So let’s say you spend $200/month just going out to lounges, clubs, happy hours, etc. To have the same quality of time, he’d have to pay $400. He’ll have to pay covers where you don’t, buy drinks where you don’t, etc. Now this figure varies. I know guys who spend $200 the first 45 minutes they go out and I know guys that well, they don’t go out. But let’s say the $200 differential is accurate. You both make $100,000 a year, and pay 35% in taxes, so your take home is $65,000. You effectively make $7,800 more than he does. Having kept all that dating and meeting people money in your pocket. And let’s further assume, that like most of the midde class, he basically lives this lifestyle on credit. So he’s paying let’s say 9% interest on that figure, bringing the yearly outflow with financing costs to $8,502. This money’s gotta come from somewhere. It either means his savings and investing, his home, or his car are going to be at lower levels than yours. Further making him less attractive to you. So you NEED a man that makes more money than you! Which further limits the number of men in that category. And these men are also subject to the most competition. And you’re not just competing with other advance degreed women. He can date younger women, women with bachelors, etc, while you basically can only date up. His pool is virtually unlimited, while yours is very finite.

Now, you can argue that dating doesn’t have to be expensive and there are all kinds of sweet, thoughtdul things you can do that don’t cost a lot of money. That’s nice in principle, but hard to execute. Things that are nice by their nature typically cost more. Otherwise they wouldn’t be able to justify their price tags. If an Aston wasn’t a better car than a Toyota, no one would pay the $120,000 premium to buy one. If a dinner at Morton’s wasn’t better than a dinner at Chevy’s, no one would pay the $150 premium. There’s only so many times a guy can do the whole picnic/museum/walk in the park thing without being called cheap. That’s just reality.

If it sounds like I’m putting blame on women for this situation, I’m not. I think women ave done the right thing, which is to achieve academically and pursue lucrative careers. The stats above indicate just how much many of us as black men have dropped the ball. I think it’s an utter embarrassment that we’re being so outdone by women especially in traditionally male dominated fields where we should have a natural advantage. It’s also an embarassment that we spend 32% more than white men on “visible consumption” (think clothes, shoes, cars, watches, bottle service). Even when we get to income parity, we end up keeping less because of our expense structure. I think those of us that do have some means really need to redouble our effort to try to get the next generation of black males on the right track. As a mentor to a high school kid, I take some responsibility there but I’m not doing nearly as much as I could.

If you were looking for a solution here at the end, I don’t have one. To some degree, I think the traditional gender roles of dating and the reality of black upper class demographics and economics are just too far apart. It’s essentially a crapshoot for a lot of women who are looking for this dynamic as to whether they’re able to get it. To some degree, given the above stated assumption, there’s much more of an incentive for a man to date “down” the economic spectrum than across, especially if he’s a traditional man and equates taking care of a woman financially with a man’s role in the relationship. So for a man to date “down” to the level where many professional degreed black women are simply requires earning power that very few men have, period, and then much less so in the black community.  Discuss.

Also, if you’re a traditional woman in a relationship or marriage with someone who makes less than you, I REALLY want to hear from you!

I’ve just had an interesting conversation regarding the rules of restaurant dates. Does the man pay everytime? Should a woman pay? If she offers does that mean she’s not interested?

A long time ago I learnt a specific formula of rules for this very situation which work really well.

1st Date

He should offer to pay (and mean it)

The girl should offer to go halves (and mean it)

Man should insist on getting it this time (important to say “this time” in some way so she doesn’t assume it’s always on the poor bloke)

Girl should make sure (“you sure?”)

Man should reassure her (something along the lines of it being his pleasure etc) and pick up the bill.

- NOTE -

• If you are not that interested in the bloke you should INSIST on going halves.
• Don’t insist on paying yourself as it leaves it open for him to want to “pay you back” or can make him feel emasculated which is certainly not the aim on a first date.
• And boys… if she insists on going halves then she is just not that into you. It’s just a fact.
• If she doesn’t even offer to pay her half then she’ll probably think EVERYTHING is on you from now on.
• If your boy asks you to go halves then you can assume he’s not that into you, unless he has weaved a pre-sob story to explain this position (something about being a student probably or not wanting to infringe on equality – it’s all rubbish but you can decide for yourself if you want to put up with student poverty/faux feminism in your relationship)

2nd Date

From now on you should keep up the offers and always mean it. He can start taking you up on your offers.

3rd Date

Well aside from the obvious connotations of a the magic 3, the third date is usually when a bloke would want to treat you really well but still make sure you at least offer to go halves because you don’t want to be a money-grabbing, gold-digger type (or at least you don’t want to be seen as one) and ruin what should be a “fun” night. N.B. Do not go on the third date if you already know you’re not interested in a fourth…

Dinner dates in the future

As soon as your relationship is established you can start going halves  or paying entirely (perhaps you started earlier which is fine too) but if one of you wants to treat the other then it’s important to ask if you can take them out, instead of just asking if they fancy going out. Plus it’s really nice to be treated once in a while. Dress up nice and go somewhere special with just a pretty little clutch bag on your wrist (contents: lip gloss and emergency tenner). Or just go somewhere local and come home for dessert (Häagen-Dazs on the sofa?).

ABF

xoxo

ht Reason.tv

[I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the epitome of prim and proper- heck, who really is nowadays? But looking around at the misguided youths of today *ahem drinking buddies*, I’m starting to think that Miss Manners might have been onto something.

While you may never need to know how to greet a duke or how to tell which fork is REALLY the oyster fork, knowing how to deal with people whom owe you money, how much to tip, and how to address the ever annoying licorice-in-teeth conundrum without being rude might actually come in handy in the real world. I'm not trying to be your mother - oh goodness, no - I'm just here to help you out of those little etiquette dilemmas.

So here goes: a quick lesson in etiquette. The sh*t you might actually need to know.]

Last weekend I went out to lunch with a male friend. The food was excellent and there wasn’t a dull moment in the conversation, however, when the check arrived (which the waiter was very careful to put in the center of the table, I might add), everything stopped. In the same instant, we lunged for the flimsy sheet of carbon copy, managing only to knock it off of the table for a nearby patron to pick up and hand to him (sexist). My friend proudly held the tab above his head, clearly the victor. He paid and I was stuck with the tip.

The incident got me thinking – when wining and dining, who pays?

It’s an age old question and with each decade comes a new answer. There was a time when the man ALWAYS paid (lest he be called a chauvinist cheapskate) and then a time when the woman physically wrestled the tab from the man (lest he get the upper hand). Nowadays, though, men and women are on a pretty equal playing field.

So, who pays?

Ideally, the person who does the asking should pay.

Now for the reality:

If the date is not really a date, per se, but a casual lunch with a friend, suggest going Dutch. That takes the pressure off of both of you and no one really owes the other person anything. BUT… if you’re going to insist on paying, then you better be ready to pony up the cash. Don’t be the girl who bitches and moans about picking up the tab but never actually pulls out her wallet.

If you’re on a first date and the other person pays, refrain from offering to pay for the next date. You may feel awkward at the moment, but there might not be another date, in which case you’d just make it more awkward for both of you. After the first few times, figuring out who will pay will come much more naturally and you can take turns treating eachother without the guilt. That way, instead of worrying about who’s  paying for the meal, you can occupy your thoughts with who’s taking care of dessert.

so i just got a new job.  i’m making a good bit more than previously and finally feel like i’m getting a grip on my financial situation.  i can breathe.  and it feels good.

well, vegas’s hours were cut by the firm.  he wasn’t laid off, but he’s still incurred a “standard of living change.”  usually he pays for most everything.  he doesn’t even let me.  he’s already bought the tickets when i get to the movies and he usually won’t let me buy the popcorn.  he is very generous.  well, i wanted to do something nice and buy us tickets to a yankee’s game in baltimore and he wouldn’t let me.  instead of going out to dinner i suggested me picking up a pizza on my way over to his place last week.  and he told me over and over that i didn’t have to and that he’ll get the next one. 

i mean,  it isn’t like he’s a mooch.  i’m just trying to make things easier.  am i emasculating him? 

let’s face it.  it is tough out there for everyone.  i feel fortunate to be in the position i am in and am 29.  independent.  stable.  and i’ve worked hard to get there.  so it is as hard for me to accept gifts of dinners or anything else as it is for him.  so what do i do?  i didn’t buy the yankee’s tickets, but next time i probably just won’t ask.  and that is probably worse. 

eh.  help!  advice?

IMPRESSIONS

TERRY SOUTHERN, writer (at lunch): He made no attempt to reach for the check

EUDORA WELTY, writer (at lunch, with 2 editors and myself): Ever-gracious, kind, aware,. But very much her own person, private

ANNA MAGNANI, Italian actress (at a sitting with Dick Avedon, photographer, and me as translator): Ungracious, suspicious of everything American

SAUL BELLOW (over a drink in Greenwich Village): To the point, no time, yes or no?

FLANNERY O’CONNOR (at lunch with Alice Morris and myself, after we bought an early story): Somewhat uncertain, lost, a bit fluttery

by JEANNE FLEMING, PH.D. and LEONARD SCHWARZ

Question: My seven-year-old son and our neighbors’ son were roughhousing at our neighbors’ home when my son accidentally broke their new high-def TV. I replaced the set. Shouldn’t our neighbors have offered to pay for half, since they ought to have been keeping a closer eye on the kids?

Answer: You’re right that you are on the hook for the loss. Parents are responsible for the damage that their children do, and the fact that your neighbors could have monitored the boys more closely doesn’t outweigh that responsibility. At age seven, your son should have learned – from you – not to engage in horseplay in the vicinity of expensive, breakable items and to be especially careful in someone else’s home.

That said, assuming your homeowners insurance didn’t cover the cost of a new TV, your neighbors should have offered to split the bill. It takes two to roughhouse, and it was just bad luck that your child was the one who actually broke the set.

Getting these folks to refund part of the tab is another matter. Our guess is that they’re not likely to look kindly on being presented with an after-the-fact bill. But it can’t hurt to point out to them that your son had a partner in crime. After all, be it in the family room or the courtroom, accomplices bear some responsibility when damage has been done. Good luck with your neighbors – and good luck civilizing the offspring as well.

Questions? Email Money Magazine’s ethicists – authors of “Isn’t It Their Turn to Pick Up the Check?” (Free Press) – at FlemingandSchwarz@right-thing.net.

When you invite someone to go out to eat, who pick up the tab????
When you ask someone to come to your place for dinner do you list what they should bring?

I was raised that when someone visits you or you invite them over, you offer them meal. When you invite someone for dinner you fully take care if it. I have two sets of friends.   One set is fight for how much each person should pay and the next set fight wanting to pay entire bill. The very 1st time when I went with the 1st set of friends I was kind of shocked. They invited us for dinner and when the bill came they spent  so much time figuring out who ate what and how much would each person should pay? When I go out with the second set whoever has the money pays or we just put in whatever cash we have in our wallet only if we don’t have enough cash one person pays from her Debit or credit card.

 Personally I would be very embarrassed to even suggest my invited guests pay anything or bring food/ dessert?   If you cannot foot the bill do not invite anyone for dinner/lunch. 

To continue from my last post, let me now explain the implementation level issues I had to deal with.  Some of these fall into strategic rather than tactical, but here they are anyway:

Minimum Guarantees
The restaurants I spoke with required a minimum guarantee to give a package rate.  I had settled on an upscale restaurant that I had visited before.  General consensus among the people I talked to was that it was a good place that met most of our criteria.  This restaurant required a 25 person minimum.  I explained to the manager that this was our first event.  I had no idea how many would show up.  I had to convince him over a few conversation that it could be 10 or it could be 40, I really did not know, and he had to be flexible.

Upscale Restaurants
There are many upscale restaurants in Delhi but not many middle of the road.  Most of the places I’ve seen in Delhi so far will end up costing you 3000 for a three course meal.  If you go out for drinks only with friends, you end up paying 2000 to 2500 also.  This is a problem because unless we get a packaged deal, we cannot get the better rates.  We cannot get the packaged deals unless we can guarantee participants.  We cannot guarantee the number of people at this point because a) we are starting out, b) it’s a relatively new concept so time will be required, c) will people pay these amounts?

Pricing
A key issue we ran into was pricing.  What is the highest people would pay?  We started with 2500.  We then lowered it to 2000.  I also started out wanting to charge a cover between 500 and 700 so we could hire people.  I threw that out the door also when I felt some resistance.

Then, a big issue came up.  Should there be a different rate for women as for men?  My partner suggested women will not pay or they will not pay a large amount.  You can charge them 500 but not 2500.  She said she goes out all the time and has not yet ever paid.  All her guy friends divide the cost.  She didn’t know on average how much her friends paid when they went out but estimated each shelling out 2000 to 3000 per night.  I went to the restaurant manager with this and he declined, saying it’s not fair and they wouldn’t do it.

Alcohol Type
The package deals had unlimited alcohol included.  The question was if the alcohol should be imported or IMFL, a term I had never heard before but understood the meaning in context.  IMFL is Indian Made Foreign Liquor.  I am not quite sure what the difference is, as many brands that I consider imported seem to fall into the IMFL category.  For example, Smirnoff is considered IMFL. 

Anyhow, the point is that the cost differs by 800 to 1000 per person for the unlimited alcohol package.  So if we went with IMFL, it would have been far less.  Based on suggestions from my advisors, we went with imported.  It turns out IMFL may have been fine also.

RSVPs.  Tickets.
I had a dilemma – how to ensure the people who RSVP actually show up?!  We all know that many people will not make it even if they RSVP since there is really no penalty for them not showing up.  This not only affects the deal that can be struck with the restaurant, for today and tomorrow, it also makes it difficult to plan out the evening’s activities and balance the ratio.  I decided to have them buy tickets ahead of time.  Since many did not RSVP, I had to drop that idea.  This did not perturb me.  I was expecting a low turnout although I was cautiously optimistic also.  So I had to switch to Plan B mid gear, extend the deadline, re-work our agreement with the restaurant, and continue on.

Communication
I did a good job, if I say so myself, of keeping the restaurant manager and my partners and advisors included throughout the process.  I kept them updated on RSVP count, strategy, and what was happening next.  I asked them for input and did much as they suggested.

There were other implementation issues as well, but these are all that come to mind right now. 

Many of you may be thinking that the issue of exploitation and sweatshops may not be high on the agenda for the Britsh media industry, however you would be wrong.

Just last week, ThisIsLondon.co.uk reported on how the opening of an American fashion giant’s first UK store in Regent Street, Banana Republic, had been disrupted by protesters. The disruption occured due to claims that garment workers in India making Banana Republic’s clothes are being forced to work more than 70 hours a week for as little as 15p an hour.

With more and more news articles being reported like this everyday, how can we, as consumers, help reduce the impact that our consumption habits play?

Well one way in which you can help is by pledging your loyalty.

While I was browsing the Internet I came across a campaign of ActionAids, that I have already mentioned in a previous newspost actually, entitled Who Pays? Pledge Your Loyalty.

(Copyright: ActionAid)

Through signing up to this campaign you will be pledging to the following:

Many people around the world who produce goods for UK supermarkets endure exploitation and poverty.I want Government regulation to tackle this problem so I know no-one has suffered producing the goods I buy.

Once you have signed up you will gain 300 loyalty points with the chance to earn more and more, simply through campaigning about this issue in a variety of ways.

Campaign options include downloading campaign posters and distributing them to others (500 points), answering poll questions on related topical issues (150 points) to even digitally dressing up like a banana, in order to spread the word to family and friends (1000 points).

Once enough points have been created you can then spend them on items such as ecologically-friendly bags.

So what are you waiting for? Pledge your loyalty like I have done and spread the word today!